Skip to content
Main Street Plaza

A Community for Anyone Interested in Mormonism.

Main Street Plaza

A Community for Anyone Interested in Mormonism.

We All Could Kill Children But What About God?

Hellmut, September 29, 2008January 15, 2011

On the occasion of Ronan’s remembrance of the Coventry bombing, I am exploring theodicy with Jon and Right Trousers.

I would agree with Right Trousers that the choices of the survivors can give meaning to the suffering of the victims. At least, we are taking responsibility for our actions. But since our choices cannot undo the suffering, they also can neither absolve us nor god.

I also agree that we are all capable of evil. In her famous observations about the Eichmann trial, Hannah Arendt refers to it as the banality of evil.

The perpetrators are not monsters but human beings. There is something of Eichmann in all of us.

I suppose that one could make a freedom argument in defense of God. However, there is a broad consensus among the defenders of freedom, better known but routinely maligned as liberals, that a person’s liberty ends when it begins to intrude on the liberty on another (John Stuart Mill, wasn’t it?).

If liberty or free agency were the concern then god would be wrong to permit the killing of innocents to preserve the liberty of the murderers.

Unlike the Communist mass murders, fairly base attitudes motivated the bombing of open cities: fear, revenge, desperation, servility and, may be, a mistaken logic of self-defense. But that does not make the perpetrators any less human.

We have not quite sunk that low but at a time where we have permitted our own government to torture people and engage into a dehumanizing majoritarianism, we have no standing to deny the humanity of our forebears.

With respect to god, Christianity, at least, can claim that its god became a mortal to suffer with us. That is a powerful cosmogony . . .

. . . but not one that Mormonism is comfortable with.

PS: Listening to Richard Bushman’s Mormon Stories interview, by the way, I had the impression that he appears to be unaware of the banality of evil. He invokes the goodness of his parents to defend himself against the criticism of Mormonism by his Harvard peers and professors. That was a bizarre argument, especially, for a history professor.

Book of Mormon Culture Death Ethics Freedom Germany Jesus Christ Politics Power Suffering Theodicy Violence World

Post navigation

Previous post
Next post

Related Posts

Hellmut’s Deconversion

October 27, 2008October 27, 2008

I have been miserable at Church ever since my mission. I still couldn’t get out because I had to act on my testimony even though I experienced Church as toxic every Sunday. To me, the mission experience was dehumanizing and sacrilegious reducing converts to trophies and missionaries to tools. Any…

Read More

Linger Longer

July 23, 2007July 23, 2007

I visited my parents last week with my twin two year olds. I live around four hours away from my parents, so we are not able to see them very often. My parents live in the U.S., outside of the Utah, Idaho, Arizona region. I realize that people have different…

Read More

Death II: deal with it!

June 17, 2007January 15, 2011

I’ve made some progress since my post about why I don’t like death. Every now and then I feel this glimmer of “It’s not such a horrifying thing that I’ll never see what becomes of the human race and that one day (and forever after that) my consciousness will cease…

Read More

Comments (6)

  1. Seth R. says:
    September 29, 2008 at 10:54 am

    “With respect to god, Christianity, at least, can claim that its god became a mortal to suffer with us. That is a powerful cosmogony… but not one that Mormonism is comfortable with.”

    I don’t get what you mean by this.

  2. Jonathan Blake says:
    September 29, 2008 at 11:24 am

    I still wonder if the Crucifixion is God’s way of admitting culpability. 🙂

  3. Hellmut says:
    September 29, 2008 at 8:11 pm

    If god cannot prevent suffering, Seth, at least he is expressing his solidarity by suffering himself.

    My impression is that most Mormons are a little uncomfortable with the crucified Christ. We prefer to think about Christ in the first vision, may be, the resurrected Christ, and Christ in Gethsemane.

    But I would be hard pressed to remember a Mormon work of art, for example, that depicts Christ on the cross and god being tortured to death.

    I am sure there are some. They are just not very prominent.

    It may be a leap but that and other indicators tend to show that Mormons have difficulties with the concept of god on the cross.

  4. Seth R. says:
    September 29, 2008 at 11:37 pm

    “It may be a leap”

    I think it is.

  5. Seth R. says:
    September 29, 2008 at 11:41 pm

    And it would be more accurate to specify that you are talking about Mormons in particular, and not “Mormonism” proper.

    Mormon theology most certainly does have full access to the idea of a God who became mortal to suffer with us.

    Honestly, I think the only real difference at the lay Mormon level, is that Mormons often transfer the full suffering to Gethsemane. And maybe you’re right that this does make the whole experience a little less visceral and comprehensible to your average Mormon. I don’t know.

    But did you ever watch that LDS film about the death of Christ – “Lamb of God.” Didn’t seem to me like they spent less time on the crucifixion than the Garden.

  6. Hellmut says:
    September 30, 2008 at 4:48 am

    And it would be more accurate to specify that you are talking about Mormons in particular, and not “Mormonism” proper.

    There is Mormon theology and Mormon culture. If actions speak louder than words then theology is only alive insofar as it is manifest in Mormon practice.

    Of course, scripture can be a powerful reservoir of ideas. But if no one talks about them or applies them then scriptural passages are merely a potential.

    It seems to me that Mormons, like many Protestant faiths, are less comfortable with suffering than Episcopalians, Lutherans or Catholics, for example. We would much rather put up an optimistic front.

    On the other hand, there is some evidence of a course correction. For example, there is this talk by Elder Edgley.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

Mormon Alumni Association Books

Latest Comments:

  1. Holly on Feeling Spiritually Defrauded By Spiritual Fraudsters (Unrighteous Dominion)December 26, 2025

    Hi Andrew-- You write, "the LDS church, precisely because it emphasizes so much about lay leadership, about member involvement, magnifying…

  2. Andrew S. on Feeling Spiritually Defrauded By Spiritual Fraudsters (Unrighteous Dominion)December 26, 2025

    Every time I think about the things I learned from the church that I still find value in outside the…

  3. Feeling Spiritually Defrauded By Spiritual Fraudsters (Unrighteous Dominion) – Main Street Plaza on God the MonsterDecember 24, 2025

    […] left the COJCOLDS because its god was a moral monster and I didn’t want to spend eternity with him.…

  4. Holly on Mormon Stories and John Dehlin’s Mystery CycleDecember 24, 2025

    That's hilarious, Chanson!

  5. chanson on Mormon Stories and John Dehlin’s Mystery CycleDecember 24, 2025

    Did you see this meme from "The Silver Plates"? I think it's relevant ;) https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=1147541454031709&set=a.698246085627917

8: The Mormon Proposition Acceptance of Gays Add new tag Affirmation angry exmormon awards Book Reviews BYU comments Dallin H. Oaks DAMU disaffected mormon underground Dustin Lance Black Ex-Mormon Exclusion policy Excommunicated exmormon faith Family feminism Gay Gay Love Gay Marriage Gay Relationships General Conference Happiness Homosexual Homosexuality LDS LGBT LGBTQ Link Bomb missionaries Modesty Mormon Mormon Alumni Association Mormonism motherhood peace politics Polygamy priesthood ban Secularism Sunstone temple

Awards

William Law X-Mormon of the Year:

  • 2024: Nemo the Mormon
  • 2023: Adam Steed
  • 2022: David Archuleta
  • 2021: Jeff T. Green
  • 2020: Jacinda Ardern
  • 2019: David Nielsen
  • 2018: Sam Young
  • 2017: Savannah
  • 2016: Jeremy Runnells
  • 2015: John Dehlin
  • 2014: Kate Kelly
  • 2013: J. Seth Anderson and Michael Ferguson
  • 2012: David Tweede
  • 2011: Joanna Brooks
  • 2010: Monica Bielanko
  • 2009: Walter Kirn

Other Cool Sites!

WasMormon.org
©2025 Main Street Plaza | WordPress Theme by SuperbThemes