I think that Kevin Barney was sincerely interested in finding answers when he first posed the question. The trouble is that when you ask a question on the Internet, there’s a danger that you’ll get responses from people who have actual, first-hand experience. Then the double-trouble is that it’s hard to answer that question in a reasonable way without, y’know, pointing out things that might possibly be wrong with the CoJCoL-dS. Which, in Mormonland, is not kosher. Those are the kinds of truths that aren’t useful — unless you want to actually address and solve the problems. But that would require acknowledging that the CoJCoL-dS may not be already perfect exactly the way it is. Just imagining such a thing makes some believers respond with la-la-la-I-can’t-hear-you-anymore-because-I’m-bearing-my-testimony-at-you-now (which Chino argues may be the root of the problem).
But, to be fair, the responses that Andrew calls “cringe-worthy” (about how obviously bad and wrong the church is) don’t really answer the question either. We’ve hardly scratched the surface of the main mysteries:
- Why now? Why was the LDS church growing a few decades ago and now heading into decline? (If it’s not true now, it’s not as though it was more true thirty years ago…)
- Why is religion in general losing ground throughout the industrialized world? Are Mormonism’s problems just a part of that trend, or is there something more going on in Zion?
- Why is it that the more liberal/laid-back religions seem to be losing ground faster than the more extreme/all-consuming religions? (Is that actually the case, and is Mormonism a counter-example?)
Now, I have my own theory about this, but please formulate your own theory before reading it.
Ready?
OK, remember how they used to teach us in Sunday School that nobody knows when the exact time of the Second coming will be, not even Heavenly Father? Well, naturally that causes some coordination and planning problems. HF had saved up a whole bunch of choice, valiant spirits for the last days — but He used them all up a generation ago, and now in the latter-latter days, He’s left scraping the bottom of the spirit barrel. Meanwhile, Jesus is still in the bathroom doing his hair for His return in clouds of glory.
But, seriously, any ideas?
CHanson? Are you saying they were lying when they said that our generation and the one following were the very elect?!? Well, and then you have my partriarchal blessing talking about my leadership in the Church, and yet here I sit… Disillusioned, fairly certain there isn’t even a God, and regularly reading and agreeing with the posts on Main Street Plaza.
I have a couple of theories, and I heard a new one yesterday.
I think the internet has a lot to do with it. Access to controversial information is now a great deal easier, and I think once you find that information, you also find groups of people who have the same questions. I think a lot of the Church doubts, but is so terrified that someone will find out they doubt, or that something is wrong with them that they remain silent. The internet provides an outlet to those questions, and lets people know they are not alone.
I think together with the internet, the Church is having to answer questions, and proactively try and squash the questions before they become issues. Our Stake President raised the question of Joseph asking other men if he could marry their wives last year. He spun the answer in favor of the Church, but I think it was a subtle way of preparing the membership for when they hear about polyandry.
A number of ex-mo’s I’ve met have come from the apologetic world as well. I think they start digging to find the answers to questions, and find out that the critics of the Church are actually right.
The theory I heard yesterday, is that as more people leave, the social stigma of leaving is leaving as well. It’s OK to leave now, because your brother has already left, or you have friends who’ve left. I saw a link to an article somewhere yesterday that claimed a study found that 70% of Mormon college graduates leave the Church when they leave college. I’ll have to try and find it again and post it here.
My theory, for what it’s worth, is multifactoral:
1) Information: The message used to be very controlled. Anything against the image presented by the Church was essentially in “anti-Mormon” books, which few people sought out, and were sometimes hard to find outside “Mormon” areas. Now, “non-correlated” information is readily available on the internet. Someone, member or investigator, looking into Mormonism can now see it, warts and all.
2) Deference to authority: In the past, people used to accept something just because someone in an authority position said it. With a change in society (ie. government scandals, the ability of anyone to publish anything on the internet under anyone’s name, etc.), ideas have to stand on their own merit. When someone says, “two sets of earrings are bad”, why? It’s not enough anymore WHO said it, but why?
3) Fallibility: While we claim that our prophets are “just men”, in the past they were treated with infallibility. Something was accepted just because a prophet said it, without question, much like was reiterated in the 14 points. Now, with easily found examples of prophets being wrong, it makes people question what they say more.
4) Lost focus: When someone thinks of an Evangelical, they think of Christ. When someone thinks of Mormonism, they don’t think of our “core” beliefs, but all of the unnecessary social add-ons that are NOT eternal principles.
– They think of people in white shirts and ties (Christ wore robes. And before anyone says he was just following the customs of his time, how many 19 y.o. in our time wear white shirts and ties?).
– They think of short hair and shaven faces (Christ had long hair and a beard. Our early Church leaders had cool facial hair)
– Earrings, tattoos, etc. (What do these have to do with anything eternal)
– Prohibition on wine, etc. (Christ drank and made wine. JS drank wine. They drank wine in the temples until the 1900’s)
-Etc.
Many of the things that define “Mormonism” are NOT core things; they are NOT eternal practices; they are societal things that have been conflated with the gospel. Yet these are what people think about when they think “Mormon”
Young people have always been leaving the Church. But it seems to have been accelerating during the last 25 years.
I also tend to believe that we are now losing not only the social outcasts but many of the people who used to care about the Church the most.
The most important reason is correlation because it cannot satisfy human needs. Correlation assumes that the people at the top know everything and that the people at the bottom do not have brains.
Both assumptions are inhumane and therefore lead to frustrations. The people on the top abuse their power. The people on the bottom see problems but are not allowed to address them.
Way to insult the entirety of Generation Y in a tongue-in-cheek manner, LOL.
As I wrote on my blog, I do not think declines or jumps in religiosity have anything to do with the facticity of religion, because religion never worked like that. (as you note, it’s not like the church was any truer 30 years ago.) So that’s why I think pointing out how many inaccuracies there are in the church, or how many deceptions there are in the church, or whatever else, is automatically a fringe (and a cringeworthy) kind of complaint. These are nearly irrelevant variables, because no matter what a member knows, there is no smoking gun that will lead to people leaving just because they know a fact.
I think the issue is more: are people being satisfied? Are people being stimulated?
I think that certain events in the world cause people to seek stimulation within church…but these events don’t last forever and religions also are not robust in changing with tastes.
I guess what is more intriguing about people like Ardis’s testimony is not that it fails to address the question…but rather, that 1) she probably couldn’t find a way to generalize this experience to others, and 2) she probably can’t attribute her spiritual experiences directly to the church.
I bet that if someone asked her how more people could have experiences like she did, she’d either not be able to give an answer that could apply to others (how do you invoke a spiritual experience???) OR she’d give an answer that would emphasize what the member does or what the family does (if a member is more diligent in doing x…or if the family were more diligent in doing y, then they’d have a testimony to guard against facts!) Notice how in either of these cases, the church is not responsible. In fact, even when the church is “negligent” (crappy mission experience), the church is not responsible, because the member is responsible for having a buffer of spiritual testimony that indemnifies the church of any wrongdoing.
If we had data, we might find that a greater number of Mormons gets graduate degrees. That undermines Mormon control mechanisms in two ways.
First, people acquire critical thinking skills. Second, away from home, there is more freedom and less control from family and Mormon society.
The Church is perfect, but the people aren’t. If people are leaving, it is because of their own flaws or because of the flaws of other members. The gospel itself is rock-solid.
Jesus Christ said “Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.” (John 15:14) and “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect” (Matt 5:48).
There are many who fall short of that, after all this life is a test.
Nice one Bob!
So… Are the Church and the Gospel the same thing then?
And would you be so kind as to define exactly what that entity or doctrine is or pertains to.
You see, I’m one of the imperfect who left – and the only members who really influenced that decision have been men called as Prophets, Seers and Revelators.
Excellent ideas, all! I have some additional ideas I’m working on formulating, but I’d like to ask Bob B. two quick questions:
(1) If it’s because of the flaws in the people, then why is the disaffection increasing lately? Are you agreeing with my theory that the elect spirits have run out?
(2) There’s a large tradition within Mormon thought that “the church” and “the gospel” are two different things. Do you think it’s possible for the COB policies to be running the church organization badly even if the “gospel” is still true?
p.s. I posted as fast as I could because I knew someone (like Koda perhaps) might beat me to the same question. 😉
Bob, you really need to read Matthew 5 more carefully. Here is the context:
What Jesus actually said is that our love is supposed to become perfect by extending even to our enemies. He did not say that we are supposed to be perfect in every aspect of our lives.
Bob: I think you inadvertently answered the question – the people in the Church are NOT perfect people. There are many examples of prophets and apostles being wrong, about little things and about major things. The Gospel may be unchanging and eternal, but the Church is just an organization. It would be interesting to see how many people still retain a belief in the Gospel – ie. God, Christ, Eternal Life, moral principles, etc. yet reject the LDS organization for bringing people to the Gospel.
AndrewS: So thats why I think pointing out how many inaccuracies there are in the church, or how many deceptions there are in the church, or whatever else, is automatically a fringe (and a cringeworthy) kind of complaint. I disagree that this is a fringe problem. While the “problems” may have always been there, current society can see them much easier and aren’t as inclined to dismiss them as merely “anti-Mormon” propaganda just because a leader tells them to. I also think that the practical implementation of the gospel is lost.
My theory is that in the uncertainty of the 1970s, the Church claimed to answer people’s questions and in the times before correlation really took hold (by about 1983) it offered a local support and offered real help to those in need and that sort of thing made people feel good. After correlation took hold and everything became micromanaged from Salt Lake, the Church as an organization tried to make everything fit into the same molds. The creation of Mormon Corporate Religion, instead of giving people a place and a feeling of community, made every individual ward into just a franchise of the corporation. As soon as you are no longer known by your name but instead a number, you lose that closeness. Instead of answering some of the questions caused by modern corporate capitalism, the LDS Church became another example of modern corporate capitalism.
Mike S,
I do not think the issue is that 16-25 year olds are searching the internet and finding anti-Mo literature. Maybe I do that. Maybe you do that (although you are not quite in that age bracket anymore). But I am just not convinced that most young people spend their time on the internet that way.
So, when I think of the “average” person who has drifted, I am far more inclined to say he drifted because he was not being engaged, he was being bored out of his mind, rather than he now has a B.S. in Mormon BS.
No, the Church and the gospel are not the same thing. But, the Church is led by inspired men who were called by Heavenly Father. Jesus Christ Himself sits at the head of the Church, and people who are thinking about criticizing it need to consider that. These men are not infallible, but they are inspired and it is not up to you to second-guess them.
You can simply choose to follow them or not follow them, and you are accountable for that choice. Following them when it is convenient for you is not a good choice: “I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth” (Rev 3:15-16).
This problem is getting worse lately because of our advances in communication, particularly the internet, have become a useful tool for Lucifer to spread negative thoughts and misinformation. A very old proverb says that “a lie can get halfway around the world before the truth can get its boots on”, and this is especially true in modern times.
Hellmut, Just because I didn’t quote a larger part of Matthew 5 doesn’t automatically mean I took it out of context. The way people treat each other is approximately half of my point.
Personally, I think several of these points are major factors. I agree with Brandon’s point @12 that correlation has in many ways reduced the Mormon experience. This ties in with Andrew’s point that people start questioning when the church experience is not working for them (and becomes more of a weight than a balm). (Mike S.’s point #4 also ties in with both of these).
At that point, Mike S’s point #1 about the Internet and information control absolutely comes into play. It’s too easy to stumble on information that — a generation ago — you wouldn’t have found without actively seeking out “anti-Mormon” works. Young people are very Internet savvy these days, and it only takes a few of them to leave before you hit a critical mass (as Urban Koda mentions) where everybody knows someone who has left, which lowers the barrier to questioning and leaving.
1) The Internet: I left the church because of the facts I found out on the Internet. Those facts had been available in print for several years, but it is hard to find such information unless you really look for it. Once I read other exmos experiences and the books they recommended, it was all over for me.
The LDS growth rate plummeted in 1997 and fell even further the last decade. The Internet started to become ubiquitous around 1996. Coincidence? I remember the LDS Church telling people to stay off the Internet in the late 1990s. Seems they lost that battle.
2) See above. All religions are suffering from overexposure. The printing press lead to the reformation, and the Internet is exposing all religion.
3) Conservative churches are “growing” because open-minded, intellectual people are fleeing all religions. Only the reactionaries are staying. They seem more numerous because they take up a bigger share of a rapidly shrinking boat.
Finally, the LDS Church has really hurt itself over Prop 8. They lost a lot of credibility over their fights against black civil rights and feminism, but the Prop 8 is more personal because there are so many children born into LDS families who happen to be gay. Blacks still are unlikely to be born Mormon and the church has plenty of women, but gays are chased out and vilified. When it’s your brother, aunt, son or best friend, it becomes a lot harder to justify such cruelty by a religious institution.
Bob,
If we’re “bearing testimonies” here, here’s some things that I believe to be almost certainly true.
Heavenly Father is imaginary. So is Lucifer. Jesus Christ was a wacky street preacher who mostly parroted things that Hillel preached 30 years before him, and anyway he’s been dead and gone for almost 2000 years. Joseph Smith was a talented con man, brilliant in some ways but also a creepy sexual predator. The men who lead your church probably sincerely believe in what it teaches, but they’re “inspired” mainly to find ways to hold onto their power over the church’s members. The church’s internet problem isn’t “misinformation” it’s the availability of true information (and the availability of support networks for questioning members).
I think Andrew is probably right about younger people who leave the church. For my three teens, church simply became boring and meaningless. It never seemed to make any difference in any of their peers’ lives. And it certainly made no difference if you tried hard to keep all the commandments or if you did a pretty half-assed job of it. Things like “callings” and “leadership positions” pretty much boiled down to who your parents are. Plus, the occasional racists, sexists, and anti-intellectuals who were put in positions to teach and lead the youth went a long way towards further destroying the church’s credibility.
FYI, young people leaving isn’t just affecting Mormonism:
http://socrel.oxfordjournals.org/content/71/3/349.abstract
It’s affecting most religions in the U.S. and in developed countries around the world. This suggests that it may have nothing to do with Mormonism or the specific characteristics of religions and more to do with broader cultural trends (e.g., globalization, the internet, social connectedness, existential security from social safety nets, etc.). LDS Inc. could become megachurch-like, with bands, peppy music, and all sorts of stuff, but they would still lose members – because pretty much all religions in the US are losing members. Nones are the fastest growing segment of the population and will likely continue to be for the indefinite future. There is no reason to think they won’t be:
http://www.americanreligionsurvey-aris.org/reports/NONES_08.pdf
Ergo, secularization – however you want to think about that – is occurring, and that means people are leaving.
Bob,
You really like quoting those scriptures, don’t you!
Here’s one of my favorites:
Matthew 7:15-20
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
I fell away because I was concerned about stuff I saw my leaders doing, both in their ecclesiastical positions, and in the way they handled the sacred tithing funds of the Church. Out of desperation I turned to the scriptures, and to the founders of the Church – Joseph Smith primarily.
I have never strived to be more worthy in my life, nor have I ever prayered as fervently or sincerely. And I did get an answer to my prayers… A soft still voice, echoing through my soul that it was absolutely NOT TRUE!
The problem with Joseph Smith is that even when you study his life from Church sources, it becomes apparent that he was not the innocent young man seeking for truth. He was a treasure seeker, a con man, and a sexual deviant.
Today men who threaten and rape 14 year old girls get to stand trial – Warren Jeffs and Brian Mitchell are two PRIME examples. And yet ‘faithful’ members of the Church worship and revere a man who did the same thing 180 years ago as a great prophet called of god.
“By their fruits ye shall know them.”
When the City Creek Shopping Center is complete, you will be able to experience the fruits of the Church first hand. Corporatism and Wealth Seeking at it’s finest.
I fear you have fallen victim to one of the many fallacies put out by the Church about those who leave though… I didn’t leave because it wasn’t convenient for me to follow the prophet. I left because after what I had discovered I could not remain an active, recommend holding member and keep my integrity intact.
I chose integrity.
All of us speak from our own personal experiences. And all I can say is that leaving the church was the hardest, bravest thing I have done in my life. And people who think otherwise (that’s you, Bob) clearly know NOTHING about how hard it is to disappoint Mormon family members. I didn’t leave because I was bored, I left because I was miserable. And angry. I was 35. I had been a faithful member all my life. For me gay rights was the pivotal issue. I could not ignore the evidence in front of me that gay people were born that way, and I could not, no matter how hard I tired, come up with a way to justify the actions of the church in that regard.
But I also agree with what someone else said – it’s easier to leave because others have left. A sister and a brother left before I did. And it was talking to my cousins (all six left in support of their gay brother) at a family reunion that gave me the courage to walk out for good.
I agree with many of the comments above (not Bob’s.) The Internet has helped spread the truth about Mormonism, and it has helped to connect fellow doubters. But I would also like to return to chanson’s argument. A couple of years ago I was in a book discussion group with some other exmo’s. Our ages ranged from 19 years old to 92 years old. I mentioned that when I was a teenager that I was told that mine was the most valiant generation. All at once, everyone — from 19 to 92 and all points in between — chimed in, “I was told mine was too!” So yes, I think HF must be nearing panic up there in spirit world, the pickings are getting slim, and Jesus better get out of the bathroom.
Good for your cousins, Blythe. That strikes me as the christ-like thing to do.
I think it’s the emotional connection people have with the “fellowship” or community that ultimately keeps people in. I semi-came out to my Mom as an unbeliever and I was talking about a few historical issues with the Church. After a bit, she went on to exclaim that she has invested too much time, energy, relationships, etc in the Church [to leave] (and other similar sentiment). I think this is also why people are so defensive about the Church.
Once this emotional connection is dissolved (or dissolved enough), then the theological or philosophical connections are easier to break since there is less of an emotional commitment to those. Facts are just easier to believe than superstitions.
Many exmormons do claim that it was because of the facts that they left. But I think that is only a part of the reason – an important part though and perhaps the one that probably comes last (camel-back-breaking-straw).
Back in the mid 1980s, after a miserable mission experience and temple marriage that imploded, I knew the church was not working for me, but I did not know of anyone else in my position. So I just stopped going to church and basically became a jack-Mormon. Later in life the LDS reeled me back in for a few years after some traumatic personal events. Luckily, I’ve since left after doing some research and finding out the facts about the early church.
I think that if I had had access to the internet when I first had serious doubts, it would’ve connected me to the information more easily and a large group of people that felt the same way as I was feeling, and that I would have left for good back in the mid 1980s. Look what kids do nowadays when they have a question about something, they do a Google search on it. After another mind-numbing three-hour block at church, some kid comes home and searches on “Sacrament Meeting Sucks” and a few lines down gets all the information needed to research his/her way out of the church.
Andrew S:
I like this: So, when I think of the average person who has drifted, I am far more inclined to say he drifted because he was not being engaged, he was being bored out of his mind, rather than he now has a B.S. in Mormon BS.
I do think it is interesting the comments about “by their fruits ye shall know them”. In this information age, ideas need to stand or fall on their own merit. It has always been true that a member/investigator needs to “find out if it’s true” for themselves. But now, before joining or remaining a member of any organization or set of beliefs, people are seeing if it makes sense, does the organization practice what it preaches, does it make me a better person or a better member of the world around me. And it needs to “resonate” with someone. We call this confirmation by the spirit; others call it differently.
One issue I have always had, including when I was on my mission, was that if the LDS Church was the “only true Church” and that it was so absolutely essential that everyone accept it at some point, then why didn’t the Spirit confirm this to nearly everyone who encountered it? Why didn’t people recognize and accept the “truth” in droves when we talked to them? When the Church was “growing” fast, there was talk of the stone of Daniel and the New World Religion and so on, as kind of implicit “proof” that this was happening. But it’s not now.
Interestingly, if “by your fruits ye shall know them” is any type of yard stick: Buddhism has grown in the United States approximately 170% in a ten-year period. It is difficult to count the number of “Buddhists”, but most numbers put it in the range of around the number of US LDS members, let alone the “active” members. It is growing fastest among well-educated, younger people. It gives people a basis of morality. It helps people resolve problems in life, and while they may not specifically espouse Buddhism, many therapists use Buddhist techniques. And I would argue that Buddhists, in general, are more concerned about their fellowman, the society around them, and the inequalities of the world than the LDS Church. So what does that mean?
Ah Andrew S., but the international law concept of universal human rights, so intrinsically linked to equality comes from Christianity, not Buddhism. ‘-)
Just kidding. Regarding the main point of this blog, I don’t have a horse in this race but I’m not sure I see evidence that people are leaving at higher rates than before. I remember the church working very hard to stem apostacy/inactivity rates from the time I was a kid. Being Mormon is hard and the doctrine is weird, and people have always left in sizeable numbers. Growing up I think especially teens, college students and new converts were seens as having very high attrition rates.
I know of a couple of areas where church membership has declined, but in general I just see a repeated pattern of maturity where convert baptisms rise at first and then fall to some level that appears to be related to culture/class/etc. generally. In New York City at least, church membership and attendance has grown steadily during the past 20 years, and AFAIK continues to grow.
I think the answers (some of which are obvious) to those questions have generally already been given, so I’m going to repeat a few things that have already been said.
Why now? Access to information. Of course the internet has played a huge role in that. It’s true that 30 years ago someone with the time, patience, and inclination could have turned up references to Smith’s magic rock or the Book of Abraham’s REAL translation. But today it takes maybe twenty minutes, and can be prompted by a moment of boredom while your YouTube video loads. Once upon a time, the Mormon Church kept such information hidden from the casual eye. The internet has made that impossible.
Why is religion in general losing ground throughout the industrialized world? Education. This goes hand-in-hand with ease of information, but covers a much broader range. People know where stars come from, the age of dinosaur bones, and how Natural Selection works. Scientists have known these things for a long time, but now almost EVERYONE knows them. A rational individual alters their conclusions based on the evidence, and in the past generation the evidence has become much more widely known.
Why is it that the more liberal/laid-back religions seem to be losing ground faster than the more extreme/all-consuming religions? To be fair, this is the first I’ve heard of that phenomenon. But for the purposes of this comment, I’m going to treat it as ‘confirmed’ and offer a theory as to why. My GUESS would be that “the more liberal/laid-back religions” traditionally appeal to more open-minded people. By definition, a liberal/laid-back religion is not caught up on dogma, so it’s not going to attract the dogmatic. People who put stock in the evidence are more likely to leave, and those people were in more liberal religions. Those that are AFRAID of that evidence cling to their religion all the harder, and these types of people ARE by nature dogmatic. They want the structure and ‘certainty’ of a religion that allows no room for interpretation. They want to be able to say, “The earth is 6000 years old, because the Bible says so!” So they seek out religions that teach that.
Anyway, my 2 cents. I’m fairly certain about the first two answers…less so about the third. But my theory seems to fit the evidence, and that’s what we look for in a theory:)
Primarily, it’s about access to information, I think. People want to know the truth, and they turn to the web to find it. Secondly, I think the church’s outdated Puritan social agenda is dying. And lastly, 9/11 has caused an extreme resistance to religious extremism (or, dare I say, “cults”), and Mormons are typically classically categorized as a cult (whether that’s true or not, it is what it is).
Folks, I am absolutely thrilled to see such a lively and insightful discussion from the faithful as well as the faithless — let’s keep those ideas coming! 😀
Right, even if the truthfulness/truthiness of the LDS church hasn’t changed — and even if you imagine that the average person needs a huge incentive before doubting it — the reality is that the path to this information is now totally effortless. Even if you’re not on a righteous crusade for truth, it takes two seconds to find people who connect with your [negative] experience in Mormonism. That certainly wasn’t true twenty years ago when I stopped believing.
Jeff’s comment (#26) made me consider something.
I think, if the internet has done anything that has substantially changed the playing field, it is not that it has just provided information…but rather, it has provided alternative networks.
So it’s not just that you can find out about the church’s past…but rather, you can find communities of other people who have the same concern. You need not walk out alone.
markshelbyp,
I don’t think I was the one who brought up universal human rights or Buddhism.
will write more later.
Mark Shelby, I have been wondering as well if we are talking about a phenomenon that has always been there but less visibly.
However, if you look at the available surveys, primarily by CUNY and Pew, then it does appear that attrition rates have increased by about a fifth.
Mind you, survey comparisons are an inaccurate business but it matches the anecdotal experience of many of us as well.
markshelbyp,
…the international law concept of universal human rights, so intrinsically linked to equality comes from Christianity, not Buddhism. -)
From Christianity, not from the Enlightenment? 😉
Since I brought up Buddhism, I’ll use it as an example of the difference between that and the LDS method. Consider sexual misconduct:
In Buddhism: Aware of the suffering caused by sexual misconduct, I am committed to cultivate responsibility and learn ways to protect the safety and integrity of individuals, couples, families, and society. I am determined not to engage in sexual relations without love and a long-term commitment. To preserve the happiness of myself and others, I am determined to respect my commitments and the commitments of others. I will do everything in my power to protect children from sexual abuse and to prevent couples and families from being broken by sexual misconduct.
How this is interpreted is up to the individual, the society in which they live, and their feelings. There is power in forcing an individual to determine what a precept means for them. There is also some room for latitude in this. In an area where social customs allow, someone could actually be in a monogamous homosexual relationship and still be a “good” Buddhist. Most Buddhists are also fairly modest, etc.
Contrast this with the LDS approach, which has the same goal incidently. We believe in being chaste. We believe in respecting sex. We believe in using it for procreation, but also recognize that it can be used to promote a relationship, even when no children are expected from that. But then it devolves into a list of do’s and don’ts that are nigh unto commandments in many areas, and at BYU more absolute:
– Immodesty is bad -> Showing your knees is bad -> Shorts should be knee length -> Shoulders should be covered -> Even in someone without garments, shoulders should still be covered. -> Earrings are bad -> Tattoos are bad
– Immodesty is bad -> Pairing off too soon is bad -> Dating before age 16 is bad -> Group dating is better -> Oops, we meant group dating when younger is better, later group dating is bad -> Get home from a mission and START pairing off -> Get married right away and have kids -> Get a good education so you can support your kids
– Sexual sin is bad -> Masturbation is evil, it gets your little factory going -> If you masturbate you will turn gay -> 99% of boys masturbate -> On a local level no one is ever really disciplined for masturbation -> But it’s still bad
– Modesty is best -> Garments should cover down to your wrists and ankles, anything else is immodest -> Garments can actually be shortened without being immodest and you CAN show your elbows -> Garments should be one piece as that’s how they were designed -> Garments can now be two piece -> Don’t show your shoulders, because that’s immodest -> No camisole tops for women, even though that doesn’t affect the marks, as that’s immodest -> Garments can be green with the markings tattooed on the inside -> But that’s only good for the military, so no, you can’t tattoo marks on the inside of a camisole top
The problem with the LDS way, is that in trying to legislate every little bit of behavior, it turns into a religion of rules and not principles. It turns into a religion of works and not beliefs. And many of these rules are NOT doctrinal, but are GENERATIONAL. A 90-year-old telling a 20-year-old not to get a tattoo for no other reason than he doesn’t like them is hard for many to swallow.
We’ve drifted far from JS day, where he “Taught people correct principles, and let them govern themselves.” And, in my opinion, this is hurting the Church.
The church’s response to the proliferation of “bad information” on the internet reminds me an awful lot of its response to internet porn. As chanson mentioned in #16, it no longer takes any real effort to find “anti” information.
Just like 20 years ago you had to go out and buy a magazine to get porn, 20 years ago, you had to go to the library and check out books to read criticism of the church. Now you’re just a click away from everything from FAIR (which is not critical, of course, but which provides quick access to pretty much every known argument against the church) to Sunstone and Dialog to the Tanners to RfM.
And the church’s response to the information explosion is just as inept as its response to the porn explosion (no pun intended): “Don’t read it!” I don’t think that’s working any better than “Don’t look at porn!” is. It’s an analog response to a digital problem.
Sorry, that last post got too long.
markshelby:
It isn’t necessarily “declining”, but the rate of increase has slowed on a global level. In developed countries, it has declined even further, and is flat in many areas. The number of people “leaving” is hard to determine as the numbers you can get include people dying as well, but it has been increasing.
If you plot trends for the past 30 years or so, and if they continue roughly lineally (2 BIG if’s), the Church membership will stabilize at around 17-19 million in the next 20-30 years at which point people joining/children BIC will equal people leaving/people dying.
The problem with the LDS way, is that in trying to legislate every little bit of behavior, it turns into a religion of rules and not principles.
Have you seen Steve Evans’s joke over at BCC?
LOL! (I’m not going to comment over there because if I laugh at his joke Steve will tell me to “settle down.”)
For many of us who leave it’s not initially because we found out some of the many dark lies that abound in church history, corruption of leaders, changes in doctrine and other things that are so abundantly available on the internet now. Many of us left because we were suffocating while inside the LDS church. The culture and rigidity of the rules thwart creativity and open exploration of so many fields of study or even mild questioning. There are real tangible punishments if someone asks the wrong question in Gospel Doctrine or points out discrepencies that were touted as absolute fact one lesson and denied in the next.
At a recent Exmormon conference a beautiful and talented musician (Mcall Erickson) presented a beautiful song about being pot bound and finally breaking free and finding out that she needed more than the small pot that was sufficient in her childhood but now kept her from growing and blossoming. I think many creative people feel very suppressed and pot bound in the rigid boundaries of the LDS church and culture. I know I did.
When I think about my own kids and their friends I am blown away by how intelligent and quick to catch on they seem to be. They have access to every kind of information and media and if something is boring or poorly crafted they move on and find the kind of information that feeds their creativity and curiosity. Even the most unartistic kid can now make a movie that expresses his or her dreams and ideas if they are creative enough to make good use of the abundance of technology found on the net.
The LDS productions and books are trite, manipulative, and written by people that seem locked in a 1980’s PSA mindset. Kids are bored and find ways to quickly move around and beyond those manipulative boring presentations. So often I find that the kids that sit dutifully in church at the insistance of their parents and leaders are just biding their time till they can get with their friends and away from the pointless busyness of church activity.
My kids became disconnected with the Youth programs fairly early on. Unfortunately that did not stop them from continuing on inside the church and they are still active but I suspect they will someday have to face a very hard reality that a lot of what they were taught in the church doctrine has little applicable relevence in real life.
I also think the contagious effect of leaving and having a great life beyond the Mormon experience is taking a huge burden of fear from those that are now considering leaving. They see that many of us might have struggled initially but eventually find great satisfaction, friends, information and fullfillment when we leave the church behind.
“Why is it that the more liberal/laid-back religions seem to be losing ground faster than the more extreme/all-consuming religions?”
Hmmm, could it be perhaps because the extreme religions block access to information more forcefully than the rest of the population? There’s nothing like keeping people in the dark and away from learning the truth to keep the religion alive.
Jesus people…
Your information-centric conjectures about why liberal denominations lose more people more quickly than conservative ones is amusing, but the thing is…people have already done research. Look up “Why Strict Churches Are Strong” by laurence iannaccone.
It’s not about what people know. It’s about what people DO, and about the cost of doing something else. Strict churches punitively police in this way, wherwas less strict churches aren’t as distinguished from the mainstream.
@Chanson
He used up all his spirits a generation ago…lol
One of the major roles of religion has been social cohesion. I think for much of the Western world does not rely on that as much. I think Mormonism depends on a sociocentric model i.e. strict adherence to authority and traditions. People leave now because they know that they have options, even in Zion if you don’t fit in it is there are enough non-LDS communities an exmo can get into. Since there is no real ban on media people growing up in the church are constantly shown examples of individuals who are not Mormon.
Throw in the Mormon emphasis on gaining knowledge, and our increasing ability to debunk myths with science. You have a great mix for people to doubt the claim of truth.
Yeah, if LDS HQ could’ve kept the YouTube ban in place at BYU, they would’ve, and for very understandable reasons. Here’s one right here:
h/t CJ
P.S. Hit the link at CJ and let me know what you think of our banner ad. 🙂
Part of the reason for my falling away was because I was tired of the fluff that I heard on Sunday and read in the Ensign and I wanted a more intelligent approach to my religion and the gospel. So I looked on the Web for blogs and articles by believing Mormons that were intellectually stimulating. What really surprised me was that the more faithful the viewpoint was, the shallower it rang. Looking for thoughts with real substance led me to the scary unorthodox fringe. Immediately it became apparent that in order to be a believer with any kind of intellectual merit, you had to accept some uncomfortable realities and re-frame your testimony in a less literal and more complex way. Those who did not do this really had nothing to say except to cough up bland, mealy gospel-fluff language, scripture quotes, and unsupported assertions. The complexity required to keep a testimony without shutting off my brain became too much, and before I knew it the simple answer that made sense of everything was staring me in the face.
I remember sitting in sacrament meeting listening to “blah blah blah, blah blah blah”. My mind was wandering of course, like it always did, just to cope with the nothingness. I had been reading and contributing to an online forum full of people who were intelligent and had such a variety of opinions and a high standard of debate. Reading discussions on this forum was very intellectually stimulating to me and opened up my mind to many different perspectives. As I sat in sacrament meeting, I suddenly decided that I was going to start literally paying attention to the speakers and critically examining what they are saying to see whether it had merit, whether it was properly thought out, whether it was inspiring, whether it was internally consistent, whether it had logical fallacies, etc. Almost every talk failed on multiple counts. I examined the articles in the Ensign this way as well, and they also failed. It wasn’t just a case of applying an unfair standard to people in the ward; it was the same way at the highest levels of church leadership. Educated, powerful men were parroting fluffy little email-forward stories and logic that was easy to pick apart.
I was tired of all the agreement in Sunday school. It didn’t matter what kind of off-the-wall comment you made, as long as it was faith-affirming, everybody would agree. The teacher would agree and thank you for the comment. Nothing was allowed to be controversial. Nothing was really up for debate. There were no new perspectives being put forth to be examined, no new thoughts to take home, and certainly no new questions being asked. The divide between the substance in the online discussion versus the lack of substance at church was gigantic. I would have great, thought-provoking discussions about the church with my wife, too, but it seemed that in order to do so I had to ask hard and uncomfortable questions. You simply cannot ask good questions within Mormonism without leaving correlation in the dust. Mormonism is not about asking questions, it is about accepting and protecting the answers.
I think Andrew S is right when he talks about the communities. The Internet provides people with a community that feels the same way they do. People bond with others’ thoughts on the Web, and their doubts are validated. They run into dangerous people like you guys, who don’t believe yet are nice, intelligent, and very fun to read from and talk to. It’s not that the disaffected Mormons on the Web are drawing people to their lair, it’s that the slightly disaffected minority sprinkled out there finally have an easy-to-access community that resonates with them and gives them the validation and acceptance that they need.
Amen. It’s an inhumane environment.
In the United States, Mormonism is definitely declining. According to the Pew survey, we are losing 5 members for every four converts.
In every western European country, Mormonism is declining. Wards are closing in every country and in every region.
Since we have had to dissolve hundreds of wards in Chile and the Philippines and since every census that has been taken in the last twenty years that inquired about religious identification has disproven Mormon membership numbers substantially, it’s a pretty safe bet that our numbers are declining.
Top LDS pollster weighs in (from left to right: Claudia Lauper Bushman, Gary Lawrence [the pollster], Val Edwards, Richard Bushman):
I left the church as soon as I left for college, and I think that some of my experiences are true for other people my age. They certainly agree with what other people have said, but I have some more to add.
1) In addition to correlation making meetings boring and spiritually unsatisfying, the material in the lessons directed at youth is not designed to address issues that we face in our life. It simply tells us that if we sin we will be unhappy, but when there are ample examples around us of people who drink coffee or alcohol and are still happy, these examples seem somewhat shallow. Especially when any time we feel unhappy with the church or the lifestyle we lead, the direction is to pray and read the scriptures.
2) I was very studious, and reading the scriptures critically made me realize several things. First, the interpretation of the scriptures in seminary and sunday school did not reflect the actual content, but was cherrypicking verses ignoring anything that didn’t 100% agree with the curriculum (like the word of wisdom).
3) The extremely socially conservative view I got at church chafed against the liberal view I got from society and school. I knew homosexual people, and they were happy. Much happier than me, and I was doing everything I was supposed to be doing. I attended church in a low income ward with many minorities, and nobody could ever answer why blacks had been denied the priesthood or why women couldn’t have it, or why women were supposed to want to be wives and mothers more than anything else.
I did turn to the internet to find answers to the questions in my third point. When I was 16 I began reading every book I could about mormon history, when I was 17 I had completely stopped believing. I stayed in the church until I left for college because mormonism was such a part of my family that I didn’t know if I would be allowed to stay in the house if I left.
I don’t think that most people my age leave because of the history, I think most of us leave because we want happiness we haven’t found in the church.
Happy homosexuals. Who’da thunk.