I think that Kevin Barney was sincerely interested in finding answers when he first posed the question. The trouble is that when you ask a question on the Internet, there’s a danger that you’ll get responses from people who have actual, first-hand experience. Then the double-trouble is that it’s hard to answer that question in a reasonable way without, y’know, pointing out things that might possibly be wrong with the CoJCoL-dS. Which, in Mormonland, is not kosher. Those are the kinds of truths that aren’t useful — unless you want to actually address and solve the problems. But that would require acknowledging that the CoJCoL-dS may not be already perfect exactly the way it is. Just imagining such a thing makes some believers respond with la-la-la-I-can’t-hear-you-anymore-because-I’m-bearing-my-testimony-at-you-now (which Chino argues may be the root of the problem).
But, to be fair, the responses that Andrew calls “cringe-worthy” (about how obviously bad and wrong the church is) don’t really answer the question either. We’ve hardly scratched the surface of the main mysteries:
- Why now? Why was the LDS church growing a few decades ago and now heading into decline? (If it’s not true now, it’s not as though it was more true thirty years ago…)
- Why is religion in general losing ground throughout the industrialized world? Are Mormonism’s problems just a part of that trend, or is there something more going on in Zion?
- Why is it that the more liberal/laid-back religions seem to be losing ground faster than the more extreme/all-consuming religions? (Is that actually the case, and is Mormonism a counter-example?)
Now, I have my own theory about this, but please formulate your own theory before reading it.
Ready?
OK, remember how they used to teach us in Sunday School that nobody knows when the exact time of the Second coming will be, not even Heavenly Father? Well, naturally that causes some coordination and planning problems. HF had saved up a whole bunch of choice, valiant spirits for the last days — but He used them all up a generation ago, and now in the latter-latter days, He’s left scraping the bottom of the spirit barrel. Meanwhile, Jesus is still in the bathroom doing his hair for His return in clouds of glory.
But, seriously, any ideas?
Now in all fairness jason, I don’t simply blindly accept everything the LDS leadership says either (ask anyone here).
But can you really take pot shots at me just because the areas where I’ve chosen to exercise a bit of independent judgment as a faithful latter-day saint are different than yours?
I’ve got a question for this “jason” character…
In one of your earlier posts, you said that “If you study the decline and destruction of past civilizations you will see that liberalism, homosexuality, amongst many things leads to the destruction of that society.”
I’ve heard this bit of misinformation repeated several times, and it simply isn’t true. Would you be willing to provide examples? I mean “amongst many things” is pretty vague, but if you could show even ONE example of liberalism and homosexuality being the downfall of a civilization I would really appreciate it.
Jason Actually Don is just fine, as you are neither a friend or a brother. You said ‘justify what I am doing..’ What does that mean? You don’t know a thing about how I live…absolutely nothing, yet you presume to talk about ‘justifying what I am doing’??? You don’t know what I do, other than going to the gym. Your presumption that you are able to make judgements about what I do proves my point about religion making people think they have the right/ability to judge others. I know you will continue to prove my point.
Seth r– no seth you didnt get the disclamer i left saying i wasnt talking about you? i did clarify that in the above post. No you can come up with your own judgment on any issue you want thats why we have free agency. Im dont want to ever cut you down for your opinion or your beliefs, the only time that i would quickly rebuke something it would have to be a pretty bad sin and homosecuality is next to murder in the seriousness of the sin. Quesion, when you say you have your own independent beliefs as well…which is great.. but, are you reffering to having feeling towards other men? are you gay seth? ps i had to take an ambien so im realy gonna start spelling stuff wrong.
ExMoHoMoDon– someone please tell me who don is?? I dont remember ever writing a don. A person is not suppose to judge but if you must judge judge rightously. By your words by your name exmo-homo-don ???? lol. don, are you don? arent you the one who said you were on your way to the gym to have your gay workout my FRIEND? I dont remember it could have been someone else but im to tired to look around for it. The thing that is most important in the world to have is good old common sence, which most intellectuals lack they are an “Educated Fools”. You justify, meaning you can give yourself 101 reasons why its ok to do this sin or that sin. well if just hang out with this boy i have feeling for it will be ok i will never sen and do anything with him and when you do you get excommunicated and then you start to blame the church and its members for making this happen to you. you start to justify your statements by finding in a blogg site like this with similar thinking people and they will justify to you that youve dont nothing wrong and its the other guys, and people like me are just devistated cause once the spirit enters us it makes us love everyone poeple we dont even know and that makes us want to get you back to church and help you to let the savior change your life and you never know you feeling gay might be your main trail on this earth, to see if you can overcome it and make it back to the celestial kingdom with heavenly father. SO, just repent, confess, tell god your sorry, and ask him to take it away from you cause i promise you were not born that way. satan will get man to sin in any way he can. I know my roomate had satan walk into his room he had to stand and face him putting his right arm up into a a quare and commanded him to leave that was a scary meeting. ok to long to correct mistakes so please read some southern writing.
Why on earth are you assuming that everyone here is gay? And why should I have to answer that question for you anyway? Honestly, it’s none of your business, and it has nothing to do with my arguments here.
Jason, you have not a clue what my sins are. Pumping iron is a sport I enjoy. Never actually heard of a ‘gay workout’. Since you seem to know so much about homosexuality, perhaps while you are telling others how to live, you can find time to explain what a ‘gay workout’ is. Some big job you have–assessing the sins of others, telling others how to live, and speaking for God.
iBear–Where to start..sodom and gomora were one of the earlies, just like a few others im going to name they start of poor then the lord blesses the people and people start to become rich and greedy. There are also more poor people during these times. Well as evil sets in the people start to be liberalized in many ways their fine clothing and apparrel, their jewelry, and all precious stones, then they begin to be prideful and think themselves better then others, they become elitess start making new liberal codes of conduct. They begin to make evil look. liberals get into power and start corrupting law and judges and just twisting everything around so they feel more at home with pople who they feel more of a kindship to, other evil people. We go from prostitues, kneckade girls, then when the society hits rock bottom men seak the flesh of men and women seak the flesh of women. i could go on and on but just look how it is RIGHT NOW this is what it looks like when the land is close to being destroyed and God destroys the wicken from off the land, the telestial bound people will be burn off the earth like in an oven at the day of the lords comming and that includes ACTING gays. ok more place… Ancient greeks, roman empire, persion empire,english empire, during NOAH’S FLOOD they had a problem with these same things mem wanted men and it was destroying gods plan for his children. HEBREWS, the got destroyed off their land cause they started to be perverted and acting in the way as mentioned above, sill to this day they say that like 40 to 50 percent of jews are liberal and believe me thats why God had to chastize his children for their abomination. The USA, where there no my person opinion is the seccond comming will be around 2019 and the 7 years of tribulation will start on 2012 ooohh i know. These statements are my opinion but if i could bet money i would bet you one these dates. LAMINITE people turn to evil and were destroyedm, the NEPHITES were told they would never lose this land if they would only obey Gods commandments, well we know they didnt they started doing all the evil things that every other great culture has done. ITS A CYCLE, ITS ALL A CYCLE! First the people are poor and humble, second they start to be pridful because of their plenty, and third they get wicked, liberalized, start going after STRANGE FLESH (other MEN) then Gods prophets warn the people to repent and turn back to God and then out of no where things start to happen and it will all depend on the choices you make now.
EVERYONE–if my educated guess is correct, just say it was and the 7 years of tribulation starts around the year 2012 and the second commind of christ was the year 2019 would you stay with the same mindset? I know im not going to change your feeling on this but that could happen very soon men you dont have to hange on for to much longer and if your currently sinning or have in the past please go and confess to whomever your church leader might be. But first go do God and ask him if what ive said is true dont take my words on it pray and ask god and if you feel something good when you ask that your confermation that i speak the truth to you. I hope you guys would consider doing that once more in your life. thanks
Jason
How about an appearance on Glenn Beck?
Seth r– the more i read your words the more i feel your gay. you might not be but im putting two and two together and using good old common sense on this one. As far as gospel topics i see that im going to have to dumb down myself a lttle bit and get on your level. first, i dont disagree with our current leadership, i believe our doctrine true and correct but alot of time even our leaders give their opinion and momons like your self go around hiding the coca cola cause of the whole apearence of evil thing, the point i was making is that i disagree with alot of their opinions on certain topics and things theyll tell you themselves that they just dont know.second i never said NOT to value the doctrines of the dead prophets where did you read that i made the very opposite point. the point was that i value the early prophets and apostles just as much as i do now, i said we cannot obanded the doctrines of the early chruch and i said i disagree with current leadership calling the words of tons of the founders as opinion, cause if your a member you should know that when a prophet says something in general conference it is scripture to us and doctrine and will never be opinion cause pres. monson or whomever doesnt know or doesnt agree. Seth what i hate more then anything is a panzy mormon. mormons with no balls. Draw your line in the sand, dont be part of the problem… i wonder if your a harry ried mormon the baby killer.. well harry reid more then likely is a son of perdition he has said that he is trying to get as many people like himself into the church and at key leadership positions. so seth if you want to join his gang go ahead but when the boys rush down from the rock mountains i might be one of the men leading the armies and if your not with us then you must be against us. I dont go deep on these conversations cause no offense but not manny would keep up. LUKE WARM SETH, LUKE WARM…and what will you do about it.
Where to start indeed…1st of all, Sodom and Gomorrah were allegedly 2 CITIES, a far cry from “civilizations”. 2nd, you said to search HISTORY, not mythology, and the biblical accounts of their destruction are myth, not history.
The Nephites and Lamanites are fictional. Remember, we’re looking for HISTORY.
The Persians were conquered by the Greeks. “Liberalism” and homosexuality had nothing to do with it. The Greeks, in turn, were conquered by the Romans. Again,”liberalism” and homosexuality had nothing to do with it.
The Roman Empire collapsed due to internal corruption. At its end it was a CHRISTIAN empire, and homosexual behavior had been ILLEGAL there for nearly a century. Hardly what I would call “liberalism and homosexuality.”
The “English Empire” was lost to democracy, most notably here in the US. But the British Empire didn’t fall, it was merely replaced by representative governments…in fact, Australia, Canada, and New Zealand still consider the Queen as their ceremonial head of state.
You have not only failed to provide an example, but you have instead demonstrated the fact that you don’t know ANYTHING about history. For the love of god READ A BOOK! “The English Empire”!? Are you *&$@ing kidding me?
I love glenn beck he’s my hero after christ but, im sure you probably already new that. haha I write Glenn but hopefully i do soon get to meet up with him.
ExMoHoMoDon — i never called your workout gay? i was being sarcastic like wow i never knew that. never said there is a gay workout. maybe you should make one you could make some cash? lol just kidding FRIEND. You may not be gay but then id be lieing to my feelings and intuition. Cause if your were an active mormon you would NEVER defend homosexuality. ive been to churches at many locations and ive never heard any defend such a grevious sin on the contrary we abhor it with a passion. Idk maybe its the homo in your display name and that you all are pro gay. I dont know your sins. you may just be gay in mind only and not in action and if thats the case your doing the right thing keep up the good work. Cause belive me i could get 100 of the mormons i know pretty well and they would ALL be backing me up so if everyone is backing up the homosexual life style on here then you can put two and two together, its not brain science fellows.
Jason — It is rude to tell Seth you’re “dumbing-down” your argument for him. Also, claiming that Seth is gay is an irrelevant personal speculation, and Don asked you not to call him “friend”, yet you persist in doing so. Are you trying to make Mormons look good or bad here?
OK. I have decided that I don’t have the foggiest idea what Jason is talking about.
iBear–i have to go to sleep now but ill tackle that bear tommorrow. And hopefuly i can show you your error and the error of your ways. first please tell me in advance are you gay? ok well maybe everyone can tell me so i can stop guessing. good night my fruit loops,, lol just kiding
I’m only still up because I’m watching the massive quake and tsunami that just hit Japan a few hours ago.
Served my mission there after all.
Seth
I was a missionary in Japan too, and I have friends/family there, and my kids are in Hawaii.
Jason, you seem to be spending a remarkable amount of time and effort looking for gay people. Is this your own personal witch hunt, or has no one responded to your ad on craigslist yet?
Mine are in Taiwan. Safely, thankfully.
Indulging in fantasies of earth-cleansing deadly conflagrations is most likely a symptom of paranoia but it’s also mostly an enormous waste of time. We all live in a physical world that isn’t going to suddenly become a less dangerous place simply because we’ve rallied one hundred, one thousand, one million, or even one billion to our cause.
The Bible says something about humility, doesn’t it?
Hi Chino
I’m a huge CB fan. Thankfully it looks like the swell is minor on O’ahu. Family/friends in Japan are in Tokyo, where it appears there is major shaking, but less damage than in Sendai.
I served in the Sendai mission. I’ve lived in or been to most of the places they’re showing on the news.
iBEAR– First of all if you think the bible is myth and the stories in them are myth just go do your thing and eat, drink and be merry cause there’s no point in you trying to prove your point with a bible you dont believe in. Im sure the “cities” du civilization ok well call it what you want a big town who cares, thats like argueing over who’s garbage stincks more (not important). The nephites and the lamanites are not myth. Your entitled to believe they were if you want but if your at a blog that asks why people leave the lds church then one would expect you at some point or another were or use to be a member or are farely familiar with our doctrine so, if your an athiest thats a entirely different arguement and one that bores me at this point and i just woke up.. If you want to strickly go off of history go and research “the moundbuilders” there are mounds that were found all over north america with artifacts proving the lds church to be true. Thousands and thousands of artifacts have been found and some even show things mormons might do in temples today burried under roots of trees dug up which are a thousand to two thousand year old. They even had found one tablet with the names of nephi, lehi, and sam all around the tree of life..If you want to strickly talk history and want proof read the ancient american magazines and do your research on the ancient mound builders and all the egyptain like artifacts found burried in mounds all over the northern usa. why dont many people know about this??? Because its the same concept as christ not wanting Legion or other demons testifying to people that he was christ he wanted the people to learn for themselves and show some sort of faith in the process that is why this is a time of probation to prove yourself. As for the persian empire and the weakening of their society its like the romans they got so evil that their society fell apart, when they were humble people and were more rightous they were strong but after a few hundred years greed, homosexuality, murder, money,evil, all played a role in weakening those societies so that others were more easily able to conquer them Its the same deal. Its the same thing that is happening in the usa right now. God inspired our constitution and made us the most powerful nation ever, and its the liberals today who are destroying this country and making us weak by all their evil deeds and their false precepts on how this country should be ran. Liberals take us away from our God given, God inspired society and turn us into more of a satan ran society that is also causing our downfall. The same thing happened with The brits it was only greed, corrruption, wealth, liberal ideals, on..and..on.., and they just like us today are on the verge of destruction, as a matter of fact the brits are trying to turn their country around and turn it into something like what our founding fathers started off with in the first place, even china is trying to be like how we once were. ibear you insult my intelligence its like trying to explain things to a 5th grader, you have a warped liberal view of history and you probably were never a mormon cause even the mormon church would tell you the same thing that there is a cycle that happens over and over they just would not phrase it “liberal” cause they TRY to stay out of politics. You need a few books to read and a lot of common sense..
kuri– that is great. Could you tell me if your a liberal or your gay? You seamed like you were against me on your comments of my paragraphs so you must object to my stance on liberalism or homosexuality, you dont have to answer but it would help me more to understand the individuals im talking to.
iBear– turning the discussion into insults shows you lost your arguement. No i only bring up the gay issue cause it seams everyone im talking to on here wants to support that being a homosexual is not biblical or a commandment not to be. I have not talked to ONE person on here who has said he was not gay and does not agree with homosexuality, so with a little common sense you can put two and two together.
Chanson– Is me calling don a friend when he asked me not to make me look like a horrible mormon… If thats one of the worse things i do then i say im doing pretty good and he may hate my guys cause i tell him homosexuality is an abomination in Gods eyes, but i do also have my own sense of humor and if you tell me not to call you fuity pebble then more then likey the next sentence might contain a fruity pebble. As far as dumning my self down maybe i would love to rush someone through a learning process that other wise might take another 10 years to obtain. I have nothing against seth i just know if he was in the right place doctrine wise he’d be backing me up instead of ganging up with gay ideals.
guts not guys
jason, since you obviously mean terms like “gay” and “liberal” and “fake Mormon” as insults, the person who started with the personal attacks on this thread would be YOU.
As for your obsession with finding out everyone’s sexual orientation on this thread – it’s utterly irrelevant to the debate. But that said –
Why do you think you deserve to know that kind of information in the first place? We don’t know you. You aren’t anyone’s friend here. You don’t have any particular relationship with anyone here. Really, all you are is a random guy from the Internet who came on here demanding everyone’s personal details.
Why should we give it to you? And what makes you think you are even worth an answer in the first place?
Jason,
I’m real curious how you got from me telling you that it would be easier to read your comments if you broke them into paragraphs to me “seeming to be against you.”
Don’t worry about it kuri. He also thinks I’m an commie, pro-gay marriage, homosexual spy.
So he’s been having a fun couple of days anyway.
seth– well something is wrong when you would rather take up for the arguments of homosexuals then a fellow “active and i suspect worthy” member of the chruch. Im not saying you are gay or liberal but i believe liberal mormons are apostate and people like harry reid are sons of perdition. Not saying i dont love liberals also i do but their position is not of God and they will be worse off then if they ever knew jesus in the first place. I just ask you not to apease evil or allow our gay friends to believe their strait in what their doing cause you would only be helping them get burned at christ’s arrival when the telestial people are burned of the earth at his comming. sorry to hear about japan i just turned on the news and want to hear about it but the antichrist is talking, yes i do believe obama is the antichrist and the 12th imam which are the same person. I didnt mean to cut you down buddy or be prideful in my knowledge by any means and if i do i apolagyse and i cant tell you how to intepret scripture but these things are my passion and i had my witness of things to come. The boys from the rocky mountains will come forth to save the constitution and the country when this country is hanging on as if it were a single piece of thread. So its not always going to be about hugging we will at one point need to take a stand and i for one have already drawn my line in the sand.
kuri– instead of backing me up you wanted to blast me on my english. If i took that the wrong way my bad, if you are a strong member of the church feel free to help me prove the points of doctrine that you agree with. My fingers are getting sores from debating everyone by myslef.lol
jason, look back over my comments, and this time read carefully.
Where did I ever argue in favor of gay marriage? Find me a quote.
Because as far as I know, I never did argue in favor of gay marriage or homosexual sex.
All I did was point out that YOU are acting like a turd here.
You then drew your own conclusions from that.
seth– I cant figure you out?? Some of your blogs seam like your a member who would be trying to help people to see the error of their ways but instead you try and debate me and i havent heard you say a single word to back up a fellow active member of the church, I asked you if you were, i havent acused you yet. Im around members everyday and they just about all think like me so maybe if i lived in a big city with a lot of liberal ideals i would think differently but maybe you gave up teaching your friends what we realy believe besides my opinion on certain deep doctrine topics which are my opinion.
He’s onto you! 😀
Jason,
Again, I’m curious how suggesting a way to communicate more effectively is “blasting you.”
kuri– i just proved my point. So far i dont see the fruit man.. you and seth are trying to get the only conservative member of the church to stop blogging here by tagging up with everyone else here on the site. Like i said your agreeing with unholy ideals by saying nothing. “Good will only triumph when good men do nothing”. You guys wont answer my question so my common sense is that you might be a member who is having problems feeling atractions towards fellow men. Cause i cant get you to call evil sin evil.
seth– sense ive been on here youve remained quite and only apease the sin. I dont know what youve said weeks ago or before i chimed in on this blog but if your not speaking out against homosexuality your sinning man and need to repent yourself, if your not here to help your brothers in the gospel get over gay sin what are you here for? Are you just relating to ex members who have gay tendencies and feel one with it? It can get a little confusing, and now i start to get all your insults and thats only because you can not handle me intellectualy or have you shown to use your common sense. I would love to go to sunday school with you when we talk about homosexuality and other sins and i would love to ask you your thoughts on it cause since ive been on here you remain quite.
I think Jason is secretly gay.
kuri– cause if you agree with me at all on anything wouldnt you feel it more important to back up the points of doctrine that our church believes instead of only worrying about how i write my paragraphs? Saving souls is just way more important and by the way this is the first time and only time i have went on a bloggs. So when i see the mindset on the site the last thing im worrying about is how i write my paragraphs and i would think that would be less important to you to.
kuri– cause if you agree with me at all on anything wouldnt you feel it more important to back up the points of doctrine that our church believes instead of only worrying about how i write my paragraphs? Saving souls is just way more important and by the way this is the first time and only time i have went on a blogg. So when i see the mindset on the site the last thing im worrying about is how i write my paragraphs and i would think that would be less important to you to. Plus im the only one responding to alot of people so im trying to type as fast as i can and worrying a little less how i set up my paragraphs. I would just rather write something longer then to keep braking it up into smaller paragraphs. Its not whats important dont you agree??
chris–geeeez you wish chis, my anul has an exit only sign buddy. Im no ones women.
Yeah, Chris,
jason tops exclusively.
kuri– is that your picture? Just asking cause i recognise your face i think ive met you before, can you tell me where your from?
Re: 245, worst pickup line ever.
lol yea chris if i were gay you would want me so stop wishing i were gay. Its thoughs kinds of hopes that got you in trouble with the church in the first place. If you guys want to see what i look like go to facebook and look up my email address jasonpaulstevens@hotmail.com
Jason,
To be honest, I was pretty sure from the start that there was no way you would even understand what I was saying, much less actually consider making an adjustment.
Really I wrote it because I often see people do the same thing, and some of them are capable of understanding my point and actually would care about being able to communicate better.
So how about we just drop it now, and you go right on thinking you’re doing fine?
Seth– gay is what it is its Sin and an abomination in the eyes of God, I in no way cut them down i cut down the sin of being gay and a modern liberal. So when did gays consider being called gay an insult? you dont make any since. Yea your a great member arent you suppose to love your enemy, well im not your enemy but whats the point you only agree to apease evil deeds you my friend are better off never knowing christ in the first place. luke warm…
kuri– thats fine but, i just hope you would work on your priorities. I understand what you were saying but i didnt want to do it i dont have the time to worry about that or do i want to, i dont have to have perfect english or paragraphs to communicate with you i hear what your saying, but not to sound prideful but you guys time to time have some of the most knowledgable people pass through your site and you guys blow them off cause they dont fit into your little mold or confirm your false beliefs cause you take the truth to be hard, not speaking to all of you cause you kuri i have no idea what you believe cause you wont share it. ps. i realy have seen you before just recognised your pic but yea lets just agree to disagree.