I think that Kevin Barney was sincerely interested in finding answers when he first posed the question. The trouble is that when you ask a question on the Internet, there’s a danger that you’ll get responses from people who have actual, first-hand experience. Then the double-trouble is that it’s hard to answer that question in a reasonable way without, y’know, pointing out things that might possibly be wrong with the CoJCoL-dS. Which, in Mormonland, is not kosher. Those are the kinds of truths that aren’t useful — unless you want to actually address and solve the problems. But that would require acknowledging that the CoJCoL-dS may not be already perfect exactly the way it is. Just imagining such a thing makes some believers respond with la-la-la-I-can’t-hear-you-anymore-because-I’m-bearing-my-testimony-at-you-now (which Chino argues may be the root of the problem).
But, to be fair, the responses that Andrew calls “cringe-worthy” (about how obviously bad and wrong the church is) don’t really answer the question either. We’ve hardly scratched the surface of the main mysteries:
- Why now? Why was the LDS church growing a few decades ago and now heading into decline? (If it’s not true now, it’s not as though it was more true thirty years ago…)
- Why is religion in general losing ground throughout the industrialized world? Are Mormonism’s problems just a part of that trend, or is there something more going on in Zion?
- Why is it that the more liberal/laid-back religions seem to be losing ground faster than the more extreme/all-consuming religions? (Is that actually the case, and is Mormonism a counter-example?)
Now, I have my own theory about this, but please formulate your own theory before reading it.
Ready?
OK, remember how they used to teach us in Sunday School that nobody knows when the exact time of the Second coming will be, not even Heavenly Father? Well, naturally that causes some coordination and planning problems. HF had saved up a whole bunch of choice, valiant spirits for the last days — but He used them all up a generation ago, and now in the latter-latter days, He’s left scraping the bottom of the spirit barrel. Meanwhile, Jesus is still in the bathroom doing his hair for His return in clouds of glory.
But, seriously, any ideas?
jason – Andrew may be interpreting how he likes, but you have to admit, you are interpreting (or dismissing) Holland’s words to benefit your opinion as well.
Andrew– i do believe in modern revelation. amos 3:7 “surely the lord God will do nothing unless he reveals it unto his servants the prophets”. Like i was saying earlier pres. hinkley went on tv and said he didnt think polygamy was right or ever doctrinal if i got it and you can be mormons were gasping all over the world because we know it is and i would sall just about all of them believe ill will be. but why did he just not come out and say yes we do believe that so what? Because, these days members of the church are so worried about offending people and hugging everyone, they tend to beat around the bush. As we know im not like that. If they ever made me an authority i would be so clear and blunt and it might offend but were in the last days so i would tell them to tuffen up. OLD SCHOOL!
andrew– i by no means want you to think this is a big topic for me or that im racist thats why i believe it cause i just have had alot of personal revelation in my days testifying to me of the truthfullness of the teachings of the prophets and the spirit is one sure thing we can count on to be correct all the time.And ofcourse my personal revelation does not count for the church its just for my understanding of history and our pre-mortal life. Im only talking about this still cause everyone esle is bud.
I just literally cannot help you.
shenpa warrior–would it sound better if i just said it was hollands opinion?
jason, was it just Joseph Fielding Smith’s opinion too? What about all the other quotes I provided you?
Just “opinion?”
And if it’s all “just opinion” what makes you so sure that the things you are pushing here aren’t similarly “just someone’s opinion?” What is you basis for choosing which is opinion and which is doctrinal?
shenpa warrior– i was just trying to make the point that one prophets doctrine can not negate anothers doctrine. Doctrine should never change that was the whole reasn joseph looked for a church to join cause the doctrine was always changing and He knew that his God would have one doctrine that worked for everybody. I believe were in the last days im a big last days buff! And i believe there is about to be a weeding out in the church and im just a person who trys not to put my trust in the arms of flesh but to question first. I believe it was one of the founding fathers who said “question, question even the existence of a god for if there be a god he shall surely make himself known unto you”. I guess the point im trying to make with that in these last days i have no clue who will be amongst those weeded out. We could even have some leaders weeded out. idk?? So lately i find myself sticking to the doctrine i have always know to be true. i do sustain the current prophet and believes he talks for God but i also know that ive found a few contradictions in interviews given so i have to rely more on my personal revelation and what ive learned since a young boy to be true cause the spirit had testified it to me. hope that makes sense??
Again jason, what is your basis for determining what is doctrine and what is opinion?
Because all you’ve demonstrated to me in this conversation so far is that “doctrine” is whenever a General Authority says something agreeing with YOU.
Jason – I get that – so you DO admit that leaders may negate/contradict/disagree (whatever term we like) with each other, but you personally would rely on your own experiences/testimony to decide what is true. Is that it?
seth r– the general rules are that if its taught at general conference it is scripture so that would be revelation. If a prophet teaches that he has recieved revelation from God and someting is like it is because of it, that is doctrine. If an authority, a prophet, a 70, get on tv or the radio to do an interview and tell you their thoughts or opinions on things its is opinion. It may be a corrrect opinion but it is still opinion. yes seth you have provided so quotes that confirm we are continuesly recieving revelation for the church and things are constantly being added because we are recieving more knowledge, but a prophet teaches something to be doctrine it is doctrine and no current prophet can go back and say ” he was wrong!” That would destroy the foundation of the church. we know through revelation from god that the curse was lifted and worthy men would now be aloud to recieve and hold the priesthood. Its not as important to say why but for us all to enjoy the gifts and blessings the lord has instore for us all. Does this doctrine keep you from being an active member of the church if you are already not one?
You know, that’s really funny jason.
Because YOU haven’t provided a single scripture or official quote in this entire thread to back up your assertions.
“a prophet teaches something to be doctrine it is doctrine and no current prophet can go back and say ” he was wrong!” That would destroy the foundation of the church.”
This is where we disagree, although I know some (in and out of the church) who would agree with you. I think a prophet can teach something that is NOT “opinion” – and later teachings can contradict it. Explanation – the past prophet was wrong. That destroys the foundation for some, but not if you view the whole process as something that evolves and is open to change. There is very little imho in Mormonism that is NOT subject to change: Love God, love your neighbor, Christ/the atonement, faith, repentance, etc. At least, that’s what it seems given all the changes over the years.
shenpa warrior– yes, i would use my own personal revelation and feelings and i must say logic as well. Yes i totaly agree with the concept that leaders can disagree, i had heard a story somewhere that the 12 sometimes dont agree that often. That might not be true but i could see it happening. And i do believe prophets disagree sometimes but i dont believe that a current prophet can just negate the doctrine of the early church. now,if it was their opinion and not taught as doctrine, yes the church can just say it was their opinion and not doctrine, but then comes all the fuss about what is truely doctrine cause it might have been to them but a current leader may think it was only an opinion. thats when it gets tricky and i rely on personal revelation and the spirit.
shenpa warrior–I agree with most of what you say, i just believe that continuing revelation only adds to knowledge that might not fully been understood but does not negate it all together. for example the early church taught black remained neutral in the war in heaven but if monson were to come out and give a fuller acount of what took place, like, they only remained neutrol because…..? Something along those line, i only disagree with people who say; now that pres. monson says they were all wrong (early curch prophets) we have to negate all their teaching on the subject matter. We wouldnt even have a church if it wasnt for the valiant members of the church dieing for it. More knowledge being given does not mean you erase the knowledge of the past you just add to it.
“More knowledge being given does not mean you erase the knowledge of the past you just add to it.”
This is probably where we don’t agree – I see it more as a sifting process. Hopefully as we move along, more of the “bad” is done away with, rather than just adding to it.
Also, it’s not like it’s just Monson or someone else speaking out against this particular neutrality issue. Seth R gave a TON of examples.
I do think I get your view though… and I’d even agree that it’s probably more sound than mine. I just can’t agree.
SETH R. i didnt have to, everyone else did it for me my friend. You know them just as well as i do and i could payste everyone elses quotes to you so you could read them all at one time. Im trying to keep it sweet and short tonight so im not up to much longer. And ask your self this do we realy want to get into a contentious heated badlle about quotes that youve already read 2:30 in the morning. Id rather have the spirit and read some scriptures.
jason, reducing the word “doctrine” to “whatever someone says in General Conference” is highly problematic in and of itself.
For one thing, the LDS Church wasn’t always all that organized about General Conference. It used to be a much more informal kind of gathering than it is today – more similar to one of our Stake Conferences. And past church leaders were not always careful to keep a distinction between official and non-official material in their sermons in the Tabernacle. As the Church has grown and matured, it’s leaders have LEARNED to be more careful about keeping that firm divide between doctrine and opinion at the forefront.
But it wasn’t always like that. Brigham Young often felt free to declare all kinds of personal opinions from the pulpit. I read one where he once declared that mothers with young crying babies ought to just stay home with them and skip Sacrament Meeting.
Would you call that “doctrine” jason?
Because he said it from the pulpit in the tabernacle.
You are looking back at history through modern eyes and assumptions. The historic LDS Church was not always as careful as the modern LDS Church.
But anyway, until you actually provide quotes to back up anything you have been saying, it’s all pretty-much a moot point, isn’t it?
If there is a spirit of contention jason, whose fault is that?
You came on here picking a fight in the first place. None of these topics were points of contention until you raised them, and then challenged all comers to come and “get some.”
shenpa warrior–full of logic and understanding, you might be a great addition to this thread if you havent already been here for a while and im still the new guy?
seth–if you only knew, i had to take my meds to go to sleep called ambien. And my sleep aid ambien is kinda like a love drug cause it make me real happy so i laugh at thinking im trying to be contentious when im just smiling trying to find the write keys to strike. Buddy have i picked fights on here tonight? I thought i have been very calm and actual think i might have me friend or two on here so if church doctrine is offensive to you buddy just maybe have a sit down with your bishop and let him know how you realy fee. Bless your little heart seth..
seth–still for the life of me I can not figure which type of mormon you are? You are quick to come in try an attempt to rebuke me when maybe me and you should have more in common then anyone else as worthy members and active members of the church, i only start to question who you realy are my friend.
seth–ive already answered that quesion buddy read down the page either one of andrews blogs or warrior. its there buddy youll find it.
I agree with an earlier comment. The exchange with Jason reminds me too of Homer.
Homer Simpson.
andrew– maybe for the first time in your life you may be the won who needs the help, if not me someone else but i would hope you go to a real worthy member of the church.
Naw, I’m convinced that early prophets must be heeded over modern prophets who disagree with them. So I’m converting to Islam.
ja ne~
ExMoHoMoDon –well we were having a civil discussion and enters the liberal “intellectual” or where you the one i called HARRRVARRD.. THE SCHOOL OF ECUCATED FOOLS. No, the only thing that is different about the two of us is i have a little thing called common sense. now see we were having some fun conversations an exhomo had to spoil all the fun.
Actually I am a BYU graduate, with graduate work at the University of Hawaii. Also, I am not an ‘ex homo’, but a current ‘homo’ and an exMormon. Just to clarify.
andrew– i never said it like that buddy, i sustain my current prophet but if goes out and tells me brigham young want realy a prophet then the spirity and personal revelation would should what was truth or falsehood. Islam is waiting on the 12 imam their messiah who happens to have just about every characteristic of what the bible calls the anti-christ, if you do your research they do the same thing to the T, so they will be following the anti-christ thinking he is thier long awaited massiah. so andrew i wouldnt run off to fight for the anti-christ, the iranians say he is alive and will make his apearance and anounce who is soon. he will say he’s the messiah and many will believe so since i like ya i would hope you wouldnt go off doing anything foolish.
ANDEW–read it the best way you can cause theirs tons of errors in my last statements, in a minute or two im going to log off but i want to read one more time what you guys have to say and if i dont respond i will do so tommorrow.
Islam is correct in that Christianity is polytheist heresy, and the truth is there is only one God and that is God.
If anyone disagrees, they are apostate heretics.
ExMoHoMoDon — wow i just had it out with their honor code department their facebook page. I just feel sad for you Don. You only have a few years until the savior returns my guess would be 2019 but who know cant you just hold off a litle bit longer and the savior could explain why you feel the way you do in detail. im just saying to maybe think about playing it safe.
Jason
I have not the remotest clue what you are talking about. You don’t need to feel sad for me. I have a wonderful life– great friends, 3 wonderful children, a great job, great health.
well i got to logg off but before i do i just want to say that some of you can be so arrogant to think you are gods gift to intellectualism. Maybe you have to keep calling yourself smart because you know inside your not that bright. You could have 100 degrees but what you lack is common sense. You can pass an exam with an A but probably still get your mom to help you tie her shoes, that is if your still living with your mom cause my guess it that you are maybe in her basement. “Contention is of the devil” and i feel bad i had to lower my self to your level but whats realy the most important thing is the spirit and in the department my friend you could not hold a candle to. So, were you having a bad day, what made you log on and try and cut someone down late at night. Im going to stop being mean to you cause im realy not that kind of person i guess i just let myself get offended cause we can meet and debate and what would your leftist friends think after HOMER made you look stupid, who then would you be? How about having a civil conversation? i have to leave it like 3:30 and i have to be up early. good night people, ill read your comments tommorrow.
ExMoHoMoDon — cause today you might eat, drink, and be merry, but the day will come when you will have to stand before god and you will want to hide your face cause your so ashamed at what you did here on this life. sure we can have fun while living on this earth sinning and doing whatever but this is only a shot time of probation to prove yourself worthy to return back to his pressence and i hope you can make the needed chages in your life that can lead you back to heavely father, this life is only the blink of an eye and what you do determines where you will be at for eternalty and the scriptures teach that those with great sin will want to hid under a rock instead of the savior looking upon you. I hate the sin, but love you the sinner. theres a differrence well off to bed ill check back tommorrow
Folks, this discussion has yielded a lot of interesting insights and discussion. Yet I’m not entirely surprised to see it go south. As usual, I’d like to ask everyone nicely, when you see drama here, please don’t revel in it and exacerbate it, thanks!
chason….Sorry, but I couldn’t help the Homer comment….I just wanted things to lighten up a bit.
make that chanson…sorry
jason, we don’t know each other in real life. So I can’t speak to being friends. I’m not someone who claims friendship with every random person I encounter on the Internet who has some sort of connection.
And what do you suggest I do? I think you are preaching false doctrine here. Am I supposed to back you up on that just because we both go to Sacrament Meeting every Sunday?
#422 Jason ~ I’ll tell you what type of a Mormon Seth is.
Seth is a cafeteria Mormon. He comes to the cafeteria that is “Mormon doctrine” and picks and chooses what he wants to believe, according to whatever rationale he’s devised for making those selections. Some of his selections are bizarrely old-fashioned, some of them are more progressive, and some of them are just weird, but rest assured they are all genuinely Seth.
You’re a cafeteria Mormon, too. You pick and choose what you want to believe. As far as I can tell, most of your selections seem to have more in common with fundamentalist Mormonism than those chosen by your average “chapel Mormon,” but whatever your selections, rest assured that they are authentically Jason.
You probably think that you’re “the good son” here, the man who truly holds fast to every teaching that has ever been associated with the “Restored Gospel,” the sure-shot for correct LDS teaching. But you’re not. You can’t be. None of you can choose to believe in everything that the LDS church teaches and has ever taught, because the church has reversed its position on so many issues. Sometimes it even contradicts itself in the same breath. You can’t pile up your tray with everything found in the cafeteria without knocking some stuff off into the trash.
So you all develop your own answers to the questions of “What is doctrine?” and “What is revelation?”, and you roll with it. When things that were taught in the past contradict things that you currently believe, you find ways of dismissing it. When things being taught now contradict the things you believe that were once taught in the past, you rationalize that away. And when you run into another Mormon who has made significantly different selections at the cafeteria, you’re shocked and appalled. That other person must not be as faithful and as righteous as you are! Yes, that must be it, otherwise he would have “Blacks are the seed of Cain” via Young, McKay, and your Stake President rather than “Those teachings were false and spoken with limited understanding” via Holland and McConkie. The thought that someone else’s methods of devising and laying out Mormon doctrine are every bit as valid as your own must never be entertained by you. Nope, only the unworthiness of others can explain the disparity.
In conclusion, I just want to note how refreshing it is that you Mormons don’t quarrel and bicker among yourselves over what constitutes true doctrine in contrast to us loathsome, divisive, apostate Protestants. You sure showed us.
I remember a while back hearing a missionary say, “One of the things investigators like about the church is that there’s one right answer to every question.” I managed not to laugh out loud, but only just barely.
Clearly, the trick is to have atheists host/moderate the theological debate. 😉
I think Jason is a fictional persona. Continued hope for humanity requires me to believe this. Plus, is there anyone on this planet who really spells pissed as “pist.”
A clue to Jason’s status as fictional persona:
“Im just making the point cause i hope everyone realizes you cant always believe what you hear someone can be pretending to be a mormon and you could believe them but there only intention was to lead you astray its clear to me i hope others recognize it when it happens.”
Come on, Jason, tell us the truth.
Resin–Come on if i were fictional would i have given my email adress to look me up on facebook cause im sure thats something micky mouse would do right?? Why do liberals always think their so much smarter then everyone else? I dont get it? You cant realy contend my words so one might call me homor or spell check my comments when its odvious i could care less your spelling is better then mine or that spell check makes it better. You dont know me so why bother to insult me.
mr.jack–thats the thing, i realy dont believe seth is a member of the church, i believe he is on the verge of apostacy. To be honest i only wanted to come to this site for a short period to see if my words and the spirit could persuade anyone to change from their current mode of thinking into one that aligns itself with every other mormon i know. To be honest im a very active member of the church and have held many church callings and i have never met “mormons” like i have on this site.
To be honest most mormons wont get caught dead on an-anti site or any site that trys to persuade them into losing their faith. So i know a lot of mormons and ive never met a seth mormon, never! Every member i have ever met is either on my lever or just a tad bit more to the center. Usualy you will only find apostates, anti’s, gays, or atheist on sites like this. So for you guys to think seth or other members lke him are the norm is a very big mistake and if you guys want to talk about real doctrine and the spirit talk someone not on this site, i would say me but ive already got off on the wrong foot here, because the words i use of the savior and his prophets condemn them, their way of thinking, and their deeds. For anyone truely wanting answers maybe try http://www.mormon.org i believe that is correct either .org or .com. I think the big difference from me and others here is the fact that i shop with the spirit and the spirit tell me what is correct and what is wrong and i dont rely on my intellect and peer preasure of others.
Yes you are correct i probably do act more like a fundamentalist then a “modern mormon” and what is a modern mormon to me? Some one like seth a wolf in sheeps clothing and someone who will be weeded out from the church soon anyway. Cause as soon as heavenly father puts the boot down on all this leftist inhouse apostacy, all the liberals and their weirdness will leave with it. Just think if heavenly father anointed me prophet do you think seth would remain a member, i dont think so.
seth–your more worried about making sure you know im not your friend then you are about making friends and saving souls on this site. I am required by God to love everyone including my enemies and to treat them as myself. So i treat my self pretty good and i like to call myself friend so naturaly im going to call you friend there buddy ol pal… bless your little heart.
And jason, what if God made ME the prophet?
Would YOU leave?
And I still don’t know where you are getting all this “liberal” “leftist” stuff about me. I still haven’t really told you much of anything about what I do or do not believe.
Except to utterly shoot down your fence-sitters folk doctrine – which I notice you still haven’t responded to.
And jason, don’t forget that the only one on this thread who has talked about leaving the LDS Church is YOU.
As per this request, I have plugged Jason’s email address into the facebook search box, and I confirm that he appears to be a real person.
OK, well, you’ve rebuked us multiple times here, and your words are preserved on this thread for others to read forever. So, your work here is done, right? Shall we all agree to disagree at this point?
chanson– yes we can, but the only problem i have grown fond of all of you and i actualy enjoy our conversations from time to time i just wish it wouldnt go in one ear and out the other and you guys would be more open minded. p.s im responding to you seth next.