Reflections on An Overwhelming Emptiness

Comments (64)

1. MoHoHawaii has such wise words, as usual. Particularly this point:

   I do think you might be happier if you entertained the possibility in your mind that you might end your marriage. What this thought experiment does is help reduce any feelings that you are trapped in your situation. Its one thing to choose to stay in a marriage because of various practical reasons; its another thing to feel trapped and hopeless in such a situation. Staying married should be something that you actively choose, not something thats forced on you.

   That is so true. The feeling that you’re trapped and have no options prevents you from analyzing your situation calmly and making rational decisions about what you want to do.

   This is also true in other life situations, such as if you have a horrible job that you can’t afford to lose. (I know it’s not as all-encompassing as a bad marriage, but still, 8+ hours a day, 5+ days a week can be right up there…). If you can get yourself into a position where you could quit (without you and your family starving to death), then it changes your perspective.

2. Lots of guys (and this has nothing to do with gay or straight) tell themselves before the divorce that their wife would be happier with a guy who loves her.

   The reality is usually that she’s overweight, stressed, saddled with a bunch of kids, and all the emotional issues that went with the breakdown of her home. And now she has to work full time, and devote the rest of her scarce spare time to the kids.

   None of which exactly makes her either available or desirable on the dating market. Likelihood is that she simply isn’t going to find another guy, and if she does, it’s going to be a looong and difficult process. For a lot of women out there – you were likely her only shot at marriage.

   Sorry to put it bluntly – but there it is.

   So if your marriage is wrecked, divorce if you must. But don’t delude yourself into thinking that you’re just “setting her free” to fly off and “find love.” For a lot of single moms out there, there is no second shot, and no one else waiting out there. Sure, she may have been miserable WITH you. But that doesn’t automatically mean she’ll be less miserable WITHOUT you.

   A real man faces that fact, and takes accountability for it. No matter what his sexual preferences.

   Of course, all of this assumes that the divorce isn’t equally or moreso HER idea. It very well might be. I’ve known LDS wives to leave their husbands when they discovered porn use before. I can only assume that they’ve unilaterally left over this issue too.

   Disclaimer: this was a general complaint about divorce in general. It was not directed at anyone based on sexual preferences. And since I’m not privy to Invictus’ own marriage and it’s specifics, it wasn’t really targeted at him either.

3. Seth — It is very true that a middle-aged gay guy (with an ex and some kids) has a much higher probability of finding of new soul-mate than a middle-aged [Mormon] lady with 3+ kids does. It’s absolutely something for young people to keep in mind when thinking about entering an MOM — it might work out, it might not, but it’s not just your own happiness you’re gambling with for a shot at a socially-approved family now and exaltation in the hereafter.

   That said — even if the straight female ex never finds a new soul-mate — she still may well be happier without you. If someone is physically in your intimate space without being emotionally in your intimate space, that can potentially be worse than being alone. If you feel like your wife is an impediment to your happiness, then there’s a decent chance that you’re an impediment to her happiness as well. (Again, not a comment about any particular marriage or about MOMs in general, just if your marriage is a source of despair rather than happiness, then it’s probably no picnic for your spouse either, no matter how many sacrifices you feel like you’re making for your spouse and your family.)

4. I wonder how much we really know about LDS MOMs in which the man is the straight partner. I do hear more about gay men married to straight women, but there are many reasons to presume (in either direction) that what we hear about is not the whole story. My personal experience is that I’ve met more than one (non-LDS) woman who said she was married to a man for years then came out as lesbian after he died. I’m not a close personal friend, but reading as much as I can between the lines, it seemed to me that for these women, sticking things out in the MOM was more feasible than it had been in general for gay men I knew who had been in MOMs.

   I don’t take my generalizations from personal acquaintances very seriously, but indulging them for the sake of discussion, I was reminded of the recent Mormon Expression podcast on female sexuality, which touched on reasons for lack of sexual fulfillment for LDS women in some (many?) heterosexual marriages. It seemed from the discussion that, for those who are so inclined, there is cultural support for lowered expectations for marriage in sexual and presumably other dimensions. I think we’re past the Victorian days of “women don’t have a sex drive”, but its spirit is not completely gone.

   This is uninformed speculation on my part, but I wonder if there might be a broad gray area between “I’m the straight wife in a heterosexual marriage” and “I’m a lesbian in a MOM”, in which women may not know, or even want to know, exactly what contribution sexual orientation is making to a less than satisfactory relationship in marriage. For men, or so I hear, orientation tends to be more polarized, and a complete lack of attraction to one sex is more common than in women. That and other aspects of male sexuality would tend to lead men out of the gray zone more readily.

   I’d be interested to hear if anyone else thinks this might be possible. Especially if the “anyone” is better informed than I am about the available data, as opposed to what I think I’ve observed in a few people I’ve known.

5. Badger — I was wondering almost exactly the same thing this morning: When it comes to MoMOMs, I have read tons of memoirs and online discussion from gay-man-married-to-straight-woman Mormon couples, but almost nothing from MoMOMs with the opposite mixed-orientation (lesbian-married-to-straight man). Now, I understand that statistically men are more likely than women to identify as gay (whereas women are more likely than men to identify as bisexual), but the statistical difference doesn’t seem wide enough to explain the huge discrepancy in the number of tales to the two types of imploding MoMOMs. So what’s the explanation?

   I thought about the same explanation you suggest: that Mormon women (regardless of orientation) are brought up with a lower expectation of sexual satisfaction anyway, so they’re less likely to see their lack of physical/emotional attraction to their husband as a serious problem.

   It could also be in part due to the straight spouse’s expectations. Mormon men are brought up to believe that their role is to see to their wife and family’s material needs. If his wife is well provided-for materially, yet she’s somewhat physically and emotionally distant, it’s very possible for the straight male Mormon spouse to perceive himself as being a good husband in a successful marriage.

   OTOH, Mormon women are brought up to feel that they are responsible for their husbands’ emotional needs. They are brought up to base a great deal of their self-worth on their ability to please their mate. If he’s happy and content at home in his family life, then she feels she’s doing a good job. [I know this from personal experience — as much as the analytical exmo atheist part of my brain would like to erase some of my Mormon upbringing, it’s in there too deep. That my husband is sincerely happy and content in our home life matters deeply to me, and not only in an I-love-him-so-I’m-glad-he’s-happy way, but also for my personal assessment of myself.] For many women raised Mormon, if her husband is distant and she can’t satisfy his emotional needs, that rejection can be painful and traumatic on so many different levels, especially if she sees wife/mother as being her primary role in life.

   This is just speculation, of course.

6. @Chanson (#1) – I so agree with you with respect to your comments about allowing ourselves to consider failure/change, in many areas of our lives. I think it is particularly difficult in the Mormon faith/culture to allow ourselves to even consider divorce (let along many other things).

   @Seth – First of all, I really believe one cannot compare the situations of a heterosexual Mormon male and a newly-out gay Mormon. There is a vast difference between a straight guy being unhappy in a marriage and the situation that a lot of gay men in MoMoMs face. This should be self-evident, but let me know if I need to expound on this point.

   Secondly, you have framed your comments about the different situations faced (in theory) by a divorced woman and a divorced man in such a way as to imply that a gay man in a MoMoM is trying to justify (“delude himself”) divorce on the basis that it would make his wife happier. I don’t believe any reasonable person could come to this conclusion based on the comments that I have included from various men in this post, let alone all the other comments from all the other men that appear in various posts on my blog. Every gay man I have met, either in person or online, is a “real man” (with reference to your term) who has expressed deep concern for the welfare of his wife, even in the cases where the wife has initiated divorce proceedings.

   @Badger and Chanson – I have followed your comments with interest. There certainly are lesbian Mormon women in MoMoMs, but they do seem to be far less frequent, for the types of reasons you have discussed.

   Not being a woman, I cannot comment on your observations about female sexuality and the impact of Mormon faith/culture, except as an observer, as a husband and as a father of daughters. My observations are very much in line with yours. There is no question that Mormon faith/culture “prunes” sexual mores to grow in certain ways that are deemed desirable.

   A perfect example of this occurred this past weekend at General Conference when President Monson and Elder Scott both chided the younger single men in the Church, admonishing them to stand up and be men, i.e., get married. There was no acknowledgement of individual circumstances, let alone other types of considerations: just the admonishment to “do your duty.” Women get a similar message, but tailored to what the Church expects from them. I come away from such talks feeling like the Church treats the children of God like cogs in a wheel instead of what they are – individual human beings, each created in the image of God, each unique and wonderful. Sigh.

7. Invictus, straight or gay had nothing to do with it. My comment was directed at a certain mindset men who divorce use to make themselves feel more at peace with the decision.

   And incidentally, I don’t really think a gay guy has any better reason for divorcing his wife than your average straight guy who no longer finds his wife sexually attractive, or doesn’t love her, etc.

8. Secondly, you have framed your comments about the different situations faced (in theory) by a divorced woman and a divorced man in such a way as to imply that a gay man in a MoMoM is trying to justify (delude himself) divorce on the basis that it would make his wife happier.

   There is no delusion about it. I can only speak about my own experience as a straight woman raised Mormon (and not pronounce on the experience any other individual straight woman raised Mormon). However, I can very easily see how some wives may very well be happier divorced, even if it means never finding another husband, and even if it means the additional stress of having to work more outside the home, and have less money, and have to rely more on extended family for childcare, the pain of watching her true love “finally find his true soul-mate” (that she never was), etc.

   Even without the element of being raised as a Mormon woman, if you are in love with someone, and spend every day with him, and you feel that he doesn’t return the same type/degree of love, and is staying with you out of a sense of duty — that will be a constant source of rejection, pain, and stress every day.

   Then add in the Mormon upbringing in which girls internalize the [horrible] message that their worth is based on how well they can please a man. (Yes, girls should never be raised to believe that, but that realization doesn’t help much the women who already grew up that way.) If she feels her primary (or only) role is wife/mother, and she feels that she’s not pleasing her husband (but rather he’s staying with her against his will for her sake), then that is a huge kick in the self-esteem every single day.

   If this hypothetical woman [not every Mormon woman, obviously] has the opportunity to demonstrate to herself that she doesn’t need her husband in her house, and she can stop seeing her role as “wife”, and she can instead take pride in other accomplishments and in her own ability to overcome these new hurdles [with her husband putting in his share of time and money into child-support, naturally], I can absolutely believe that in many cases this hypothetical woman would be happier divorced.

9. @Chanson (#8) Thank you for your insights, which have been personally helpful to me.

10. Invictus — thanks, I hope my perspective can be helpful, even if it doesn’t apply to every case.

    Also, regarding the comparison with straight guys: I’d say that it’s important to go back to the earlier point about where you are on the gay/bi spectrum. Specifically, if you sincerely feel like you are/were in love with your wife (even if you’re also attracted to men), and if you feel like you have an intimate emotional connection with her (but might like to sleep with men), then your situation is actually kind of like the straight guy who may just have his eye wandering to greener pastures after his wife “lets herself go”. If, OTOH, you feel like “I love her, but I was never really in love with her; I thought I could form an intimate emotional bond with her, but I really never did” — then that’s a totally different story.

11. Just a point of clarification, I generally support Chanson’s overall point here that there are varied human relationships at play here that don’t always lend themselves well to blanket “Dr. Laura”-style prescriptions or critiques.

12. this has been a topic I have read and written about for a couple of decades, and I’m glad to see the comments here, especially chanson’s, which I think are right on the mark.

    Every gay man I have met, either in person or online, is a real man (with reference to your term) who has expressed deep concern for the welfare of his wife, even in the cases where the wife has initiated divorce proceedings.

    A major concern in all of this remains the timing of gay men’s deep concern about the welfare of the women they marry. I wish it happened sooner–as in, before courtship. I can’t help feeling that so many MoMOM’s happen because the person with the incompatible orientation doesn’t think through the anguish they’ll be creating for a partner who is deeply in love with a spouse who can’t reciprocate.

    Of course, one reason for that is sexual and emotional immaturity and ignorance–if you encourage people to remain inexperienced virgins until they marry in their early 20s, they might not know all that much about how love and attraction works.

    But I also think part of it is plain old sexism and traditional gender roles. Women are routinely told that they should sacrifice their own happiness for that of men, and men are trained to expect that sacrifice.

    One reason I so appreciate Mohohawaii’s statements in all of this is that he’s not neutral, and he very strongly advocates a position that protects women. Having made what he can see is most usually mistake, he does what he can to help others avoid it–not only because it hurts gay men like him, but because it hurts straight women like his wife.

13. @Holly – You wrote: “A major concern in all of this remains the timing of gay mens deep concern about the welfare of the women they marry. I wish it happened sooneras in, before courtship. I cant help feeling that so many MoMOMs happen because the person with the incompatible orientation doesnt think through the anguish theyll be creating for a partner who is deeply in love with a spouse who cant reciprocate.”

    With respect, Holly, this comment reveals a deep misunderstanding of the factors that result in MoMoMs.

    In the first place, many Mormon men – especially those who are now middle-aged – who are gay and enter into marriage do not even realize at the time of their marriages that they are (permanently) gay. There is and has been such an overwhelming stigma against homosexuality in the church that men have gone to great lengths to convince themselves that they are not gay. Some (though a minority) didn’t have a clue when they got married. Others did, but repressed this knowledge, desperately trying to be straight.

    Secondly, there was a period of time, which ended only relatively recently, when the church actively encouraged gay Mormon men to marry; that this would “cure” them of their homosexuality. It was and still is (practically speaking) the doctrine of the church that sexual orientatin can be “changed.” Countless gay men were told that if they just prayed hard enough and worked hard enough and devoted themselves to their marriages, the gay would go away, i.e., they could change. Though this formula has worked for some, it has NOT worked in the vast majority of cases.

    Thirdly, these men who entered into these marriages were desperately trying to “do the right thing.” They believed in what the church leaders told them. In most cases, they devoted themselves heart and soul to their marriages.

    But it wasn’t enough.

    Frankly, to imply that gay men simply ignored their future wife’s feelings and happiness and cavalierly entered into “marriages of convenience” (for what purpose?) is beyond the pale of reasonability.

    You are right that MoHoHawaii hopes that no more young gay Mormon men will marry, thinking that they are thereby “doing the right thing” (which they are CONSTANTLY encouraged to do). I very much share this hope and desire, which is one reason why I have devoted so much of my blog to sharing stories of older men who did marry. The plain fact of the matter is that, in the vast majority of the cases, a MoMoM is a zero-sum game: no one wins: not the husband, not the wife and not the children.

14. I think modern divorce rates at least cast serious doubt on the notion that “getting sexual experience” before marriage makes you any more likely to not screw up your intimate life after marriage.

    If anything, the opposite seems to be true.

15. I think modern divorce rates at least cast serious doubt on the notion that getting sexual experience before marriage makes you any more likely to not screw up your intimate life after marriage.

    If anything, the opposite seems to be true.

    Yeah, I kind of think that the notion (that it is important to get sexual experience first) is rapidly becomeing one of those things that “everybody knows” whether or not there’s a lick of truth to it.

16. Invictus — In the case of so many MoMOMs, it is absolutely true that the young man was taught that he wasn’t gay, that he was just suffering from a curable perversion, and that he would be capable of offering his wife the kind of love she deserves. I don’t think that the discussion of existing MoMOMs should center around blaming people who were lied to (by the church, society, whomever) and who entered into the marriage in good faith. It is rather for the next generation that they should look upon these experiences, and learn, and not fall prey to the same misinformation.

17. Frankly, to imply that gay men simply ignored their future wifes feelings and happiness and cavalierly entered into marriages of convenience (for what purpose?) is beyond the pale of reasonability.

    As I say, I’ve been reading and writing about this for a couple of decades. I would by no means say that all gay men did this. But I know of some who did exactly that.

    here’s a link to something I wrote on the topic. You have to scroll down two pages to get to it, but I think it covers a lot of the topics you cover too.
    https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/147-42-50.pdf

18. Thanks, Holly, for the link.

    Here is a link to a blog post, just published by Alex (quoted in my post above). I think it is very germane to this discussion:
    http://thecrazymormon.blogspot.com/2011/04/speaking-out.html

19. Invictus — thanks for the link to Alex’s post. It is indeed a very germane and poignant piece on a difficult subject.

    I would also like to recommend a pair of books that you might be interested in reading: My Ex is Having Sex with Rex and Falling into Life. It’s the one example I know of where a couple in a MoMOM each wrote a memoir of their marriage and divorce. They’re both good books, and it’s fascinating to see their situation from both sides.

    Now, I would like to quote one part from Steve’s book that’s germane to this discussion:

    After we consummated our marriage, I knew I was doomed. The spark was not there. I was lost. I had been counseled that marriage would make me straight, and in that one moment, in my first thrust, I knew it was a lie. I wanted my heart to pound, I wanted this so bad, and it was not happening. It was not going to save me, it was not going to happen. She was a virgin who was saving herself for marriage, only to marry a gay man. I knew it was a tragedy of epic proportions.

    I didn’t give up. Maybe God could still save me somehow. It was a sin, I was hell-bound, and she was going to be my salvation. Sixteen years later, after confessing to my wife that I was gay in year four of our marriage, after twelve years in “conversion therapy”, years of heart ache, cheating, bargaining with God, three kids and absolute mental devastation, I felt suicidal.

    [my emphasis]

    Now, I hesitate to write about this because I really like Steve, he is a great guy, and it warms my heart to hear about the happiness he eventually found as he learned to love himself for who he is. But, as he describes (in his book) his decision to court and marry a straight woman, it is painful to read how little thought he gave to her half of the equation. That remark above about the tragic virgin is about the extent of it. That is, his decision was framed entirely in terms of what he would have to give up and what he would get in return.

    And the thing is that Steve isn’t/wasn’t some malicious evil villain. He was using the tools he was given to make sense of his universe. It may be hard to imagine that a loving, well-meaning person would “cavalierly ignore [his] future wifes feelings and happiness” — but reality isn’t limited by the constraints of your imagination. That’s why I feel like it’s important to speak openly about these subjects. Information gained from the earlier generations’ experiences can give young people more tools to interpret their own lives and situations.

    In this case there are two terrible misconceptions that both need to be addressed and overturned:

    1. Homosexuality is not a disease or disorder — it does not need to be “cured”.
    2. The straight woman you may be considering courting/marrying is a person, not a bottle of [sweet or bitter] medicine for you to take in order to “cure” yourself.

    Again, I hope this is not come off as harsh or blaming. I think it is valuable to discuss this openly, even if it is difficult.

20. Also, there’s one additional point that Alex’s post (linked @18) illustrates — something that’s not just about MOMs, but about relationships in general:

    Alex talks about how he will miss the comfort and support he gets from having his wife with him, but he is giving that up for the sake of her happiness. He has learned something important from his experience. Regardless of one’s gender/orientation, it’s not difficult to find someone who will fall in love with you, whom you like but whom you’re not in love with. It feels great to have that person who thinks you’re wonderful and is always there waiting for your call. It takes relationship experience to learn that that’s not a nice/noble/tragic thing to do, and to learn that — no matter how happy that person is to see you each time — you’re actually not doing that person a favor by coming around.

    Following up on Holly’s remark about experience (not necessarily sexual, but relationship experience): encouraging people to marry too young can cause problems.

21. “no matter how happy that person is to see you each time youre actually not doing that person a favor by coming around.”

    Sorry Chanson, that sentence made absolutely no sense to me.

22. Seth — what I mean is the following:

    If someone is in love with you, and you keep encouraging that person and giving them false hope that you’re in love with them or one day will be, you’re not doing that person a favor. That person will feel less pain in the long run if you make a clean break. Either make it crystal clear that it’s not a romantic relationship (and never will be) or break off the friendship/relationship until the other person has gotten over you and moved on.

23. I mean, assuming that you’re not in love with that person and never will be.

    Anyway, that’s just one of the things I learned from my dating experience prior to my current (and only true) marriage. If other people disagree, they can go ahead and explain their objections.

24. And the thing is that Steve isnt/wasnt some malicious evil villain. He was using the tools he was given to make sense of his universe. It may be hard to imagine that a loving, well-meaning person would cavalierly ignore [his] future wifes feelings and happiness but reality isnt limited by the constraints of your imagination.

    Yes. It doesn’t take malice to inflict incredible cruelty and suffering on another person. Ignorance and lack of imagination often work just as well.

    Thats why I feel like its important to speak openly about these subjects. Information gained from the earlier generations experiences can give young people more tools to interpret their own lives and situations.

    I have a friend, a straight woman, who, because she cares about things like human rights and justice, sometimes drops in on BYU’s gay student organization. There are several members of that group who are gay men married to straight women. They point to things like all the blogs by gay Mormon men in MOM’s as evidence that they are doing A) the right thing and B) something that can work. It’s like the previous generations’ experience doesn’t even exist–because any time a gay man divorces, he’s no longer considered a respectable authority for these guys.

    At no point do I think we should stop sympathizing with those who end up caught in this repeating tragedy, but at some point I want to move beyond doing only that and prevent the often avoidable tragedy from happening–at least from time to time.

    And since men still have more agency and control in the matter of courtship, and since it’s straight women who really, uh, get the short end of the stick in MoMOMs with gay men, I feel it is incumbent on gay men who gain a testimony of the shortcomings of moMOMs to share it fervently as often as possible with those who most need to hear it.

    IP, I just took a look at this page on your blog: http://invictuspilgrim.blogspot.com/p/mixed-orientation-marriage-mom-posts.html

    Anyone looking at the images you provide there would think that a straight woman/gay man MOM is entirely about the man in it–and from every gay male MoMOM blog I’ve read, that would be a reasonable inference. What could you do to bring more attention to the woman in a/your marriage? Could you have images of women–beautiful, broken, defiant, angry, weeping? Could you write posts with titles like “Remember: You’re marrying a WOMAN, not an Idea” and “What’s Going to Happen to Your Wife When it All Falls Apart”?

    Following up on Hollys remark about experience (not necessarily sexual, but relationship experience): encouraging people to marry too young can cause problems.

    Thank you, chanson, for recognizing that distinction between sexual experience and relationship experience. It’s possible to have loads of the former and almost none of the latter. That’s what often happens to victims of sexual abuse, or people who engage only in one-night stands. I think relationship experience is far more important than sexual experience in making a relationship succeed.

25. no matter how happy that person is to see you each time youre actually not doing that person a favor by coming around.

    I understood the sentence perfectly and nodded in agreement when I read it. It’s one of the things I learned quite thoroughly through my dating experience as well. it’s another statement of the whole “you’ve got to be cruel to be kind” understanding that repeatedly breaking someone’s heart isn’t such a nice thing to do, so do it once and for all, and let the rejected one move on.

26. Holly, you are obviously coming at this whole issue from your perspective, which I acknowledge, appreciate and understand (to the extent I can).

    I am coming at it from a different perspective – mine. The posts about MoMoMs that I have put on my blog come out of my own experience and those of other men in similar situations. They are real; they are authentic; they are valid; they are sincere. They come from the perspective of a gay man in a MoMoM. I make no apologies for them.

    There are a number of us who are trying to do what we can to help and educate younger gay men who have been raised in or otherwise come out of a Mormon experience. We have found through our own experience that “preaching” to them doesn’t really help. We therefore try to share our experiences so that they can hopefully benefit from them. This is precisely the reason why I have created a page on my blog that lists all the posts dealing with MoMoMs.

    All that being said, I would like to extend an invitation for you to prepare a guest post to be published on my blog in which you write about this issue from your perspective. I am sure it would be enlightening and beneficial to those who read my blog.

27. IP–I don’t expect you to renounce or apologize for the perspective you’ve expressed thus far. But your marriage is not about only you, and I am suggesting that it might be a good idea to demonstrate in your writing and on your blog more awareness, concern and compassion for what your decisions have cost your wife, because by doing so, you can get single gay men on the verge of repeating your mistake to factor in more accurately and appropriately to their decision what that decision will cost any woman they might marry, and I would hope most devoutly that they would actually care about that.

    The plain fact of the matter is that, in the vast majority of the cases, a MoMoM is a zero-sum game: no one wins: not the husband, not the wife and not the children.

    It’s not just that it’s a zero-sum game. It’s that gay men who court and marry straight women have privilege, power and information their wives lack. Gay men who court and marry straight women might have been deceived and victimized by the church, but they subsequently deceive and victimize their wives, and they can and should stop.

    We have found through our own experience that preaching to them doesnt really help. We therefore try to share our experiences so that they can hopefully benefit from them.

    Testimony bearing is a primary way that Mormons share personal experience, so we’re getting at the same thing.

    I would like to extend an invitation for you to prepare a guest post to be published on my blog in which you write about this issue from your perspective. I am sure it would be enlightening and beneficial to those who read my blog.

    I appreciate the invitation, but I will pass. If you want to include my perspective on your blog, it would be easy enough for you to simply link to my Sunstone article. Anything I would write for a gay male MOM blog would draw heavily on it to begin with, and I don’t really have the time to reframe it. In a guest post, I would also repeat the suggestion I make here, that you might write a few posts focusing on your wife, but you reject that out of hand, so it seems pointless to make it again on your blog.

28. OK Chanson. That makes sense.

    At least, it makes sense early in the relationship.

    It’s a different story when you’ve both already invested years and years in the relationship.

    I’m simply not convinced that all mistakes can be corrected. And calling for a “do-over” is not always an option. Sometimes we have to live with our mistakes – even if it sucks.

29. Seth — That may well be true. As far as existing MoMOMs are concerned, they vary, and I’m not going to pretend that I know a magic formula for what will make other people happy. I’m just asking those who are considering entering MOMs to think about these points before they do.

30. Im simply not convinced that all mistakes can be corrected. And calling for a do-over is not always an option. Sometimes we have to live with our mistakes even if it sucks.

    Calling for a ‘do-over’ is NEVER an option in the case of a divorce where children are involved. It’s not a do-over people are seeking, but a way to acknowledge and live with the consequences of a failed decision.

    I’m from the “once you make your bed, you have to lie in it” school of thought, and I think that most mistakes can’t be corrected, only dealt with and lived with.

    But sometimes dealing and living with them involves admitting utter failure and defeat. Sometimes there is no point in prolonging a battle that is already lost. Sometimes you live with a mistake by admitting that it was a huge mistake and making changes.

    Dealing with a mistake in no way means that you must keep prolonging it, for 40 or 50 years instead of 20 or 30, particularly if you have the resources to stop.

    Sometimes marriages that feel like traps really are traps–for everyone involved. No reason to stay in them if people can get out, especially since studies increasingly demonstrate that children actually do better in single-parent homes than they do in homes where parents don’t get along.

31. studies increasingly demonstrate that children actually do better in single-parent homes than they do in homes where parents dont get along.

    I’d be curious to see such studies because this is a point I’ve wondered about for some time. People point to studies that kids with two parents do better than kids from single parent homes, and use that as evidence that people should stay together for the kids. But I’ve always felt that that’s an unfair comparison — it assumes that sticking with a bad marriage is equivalent to cases where the parents don’t want to get divorced. If the question is whether or not to stick it out for the kids, then we should be comparing children of divorce with children whose parents wanted to divorce but decided to stick it out “for the kids”.

32. here’s one link: http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/features/dont-stay-together-for-the-kids-rowing-parents-told-1879980.html

33. I can get on board with that notion Holly.

    I’m just saying that there isn’t a one-size-fits-all solution to complex human problems. And gay guys in a “straight” marriage shouldn’t think that divorce represents that kind of a solution. I think there are voices in the blogosphere that are actively advocating for gay guys to divorce their wives when that isn’t always the best solution for all concerned. I personally know of at least a couple gay guys married to women who almost felt BULLIED by their fellow gays into divorcing their wives – when they didn’t want to do that at all.

    Just as I know of guys who were undeniably gay, but who just didn’t want to perform anal sex (didn’t do anything for them)- but felt pressured to “put out” to get the kind of affection they wanted.

    I guess the take-home point is that people are complex, and not everyone experiences love and intimacy the same way. Yet you keep encountering voices within the gay community who want everyone to do things the same – the same way THEY do them.

    Which I think is just as unhelpful as straight people demanding the same sort of homogeneity the other way.

    Anyway…

    Divorce. It isn’t a cure-all. Or even necessarily a cure at all.

34. I think a well-adjusted single parent home is better than an unhappy maladjusted two-parent home.

    But that’s not the same thing as saying that single parent homes are no different from the two-parent ones.

35. I personally know of at least a couple gay guys married to women who almost felt BULLIED by their fellow gays into divorcing their wives when they didnt want to do that at all.

    I had a close relative who was a lawyer who handled a lot of divorces, and typically represented women. He said once that he would sometimes suggest to women that perhaps they weren’t ready for a divorce. One way he personally judged that was if they said things like, “I want him to see what he’s done to me and the kids” or “I want him to pay for all the misery he’s caused me.” Statements like that suggested an investment in the marriage rather than moving on from it. He knew women were ready for a divorce when they said things like, “I just want my life back” or “it’s time for me and the kids to move on” or even “I just want to be free of the son of a bitch.”

    People should be allowed to do what they are able to do when they are able to do it.

    if the men don’t want to divorce yet or ever, they certainly shouldn’t be bullied into it by those outside the marriage. But the decision to divorce if that’s really what they want and need to do should be given more respect and credibility, I think, for the reasons I mention above.

    And the fact that, thanks to the quest for women’s rights, women can sue for divorce, means that the men’s decisions don’t have to be paramount at some point: the women can also decide if they want out. In such cases, I hope the gay husbands will make things as easy as possible.

    But thats not the same thing as saying that single parent homes are no different from the two-parent ones.

    did anyone here say that?

36. “did anyone here say that?”

    I suppose not.

37. I’m the Alex that IP quotes in the post,
    Holly, I read your sunstone article and it’s given me a lot to think about. About the nature of feminism, and the way that men in general relate to it.
    My future ex-wife, considers herself a feminist. I also consider myself a feminist. But I’ve noticed that in spite of the fact that I’m gay, that doesn’t automatically make me respectful of women. I still tend to/tended to approach my marriage in a very patriarchal way. I wanted to be the one who earned the money so we went with my career. I wanted to be the one to provide for my wife while she stayed home with kids. I always insisted that we should think about having kids soon. I’m grateful we didn’t. It goes beyond this, but my point is that it can be very difficult to unthink this, forgive the overused term, ideology.
    The church likes to view itself of being above and outside ideologies. But there is no question that at the very least the institutional practice of running the church is influenced by a heteronormative, patriarchal way of thinking. Gay men marry women because even if the church doesn’t counsel anymore to get married as a fix or cure, it is virtually impossible to ignore the culture and ideology that teaches that every man should be married, and be out dating women. Just listen to the last general conference. I couldn’t help but feel for the thousands of gay mormons out there that hear the message that men are not being responsible enough, and will make like I did the unfortunate choice to get married to a woman.
    It was selfish of me. In my defense, I honestly tried to break up with her twice, once for ridiculous reasons, and once because I laid out to her that I was attracted to men and always would be. But I didn’t ever admit to being gay, just having same-sex attraction. And when she told me she was committed to me, I figured that commitment would come on my part eventually.
    It didn’t. I do love my wife, but I don’t romantically love her. Seth, you can say that it’s just like a man not looking for another woman, but what if you were incapable of loving the woman you are supposed to be totally committed to. What if you couldn’t physically or physologically commit to her because you were wired differently. I used to think that I could change this, that therapy would fix this, but it’s my sexual orientation.
    And oh, it’s hard to give up being with her, but in the end she decided it was best to divorce me after I laid it out.The most annoying thing is that my family never took into account what she was feeling in their words to me. They tried to convince me I was making a mistake. They assumed my wife should just be devoted and faithful as I came around. But none of them asked how she felt.
    I’ll admit Seth, that I can fall into being patriarchal and I can fall into justification in saying I’m doing this for her. I’m not. It’s for both of us. But the words in their original context were directed toward Gay men in Mom’s that think that the decision to stay married is just about them. They need to realize that they are hurting their relationship, and hurting their wife by trying to lie to her and themselves. They need to get out of themselves and think about the other person instead of selfishly always worrying about their wants and needs, like the need for security and stability, or someone to do their laundry, or someone that is a reliable source of sex, even if it isn’t what you really want or need emotionally, it’s a way to get some release.
    I consider getting divorced an act of love for both of us. Call it what you will. But to say I can’t be the man you need, to give her the opportunity to be with someone else who can be fulfilled by her and fulfill her, I think that there is some real love in that decision.
    I didn’t force her to get divorced. I wouldn’t say it’s not my fault, but we talked it out, and eventually she decided that it would be best to get divorced. I was hesitant, because I wondered if I could have some kind of relationship that still met my needs, still let me have a lot of the benefits of marriage even without sex. It’s hard to give them up. My earlier thoughts and post reflect that decision to give up the benefits of the relationship in hope for something better for both of us.

38. Hi Alex. Thank you very much for taking the time to read my essay so carefully. I very much appreciate your honesty, and am moved to know that it helped you see certain things about your situation and the situation of women in the church.

    I think you are right that getting a divorce in your case is indeed an act of love. I wish you and your wife every possible happiness, and hope that you both get what you want from here on out.

    And I also hope that you will find a way to remain friends. As I say, my friendship with my gay ex is one of the dearest of my life.

39. I think the issue of disclosure is an interesting one. Frankly, I don’t think pre-engagement or premarital disclosure of one’s homosexuality goes far enough. Limerence being what it is, any declaration of same-sex attraction is likely to be minimized by the other party. This is just human nature. A person who knows that he or she is primarily attracted to members of the same sex should realize the asymmetric nature of the situation and *not allow the engagement* to take place in the first place. It shouldn’t be “I’m gay, do you still want to marry me?”; instead, I think the ethical statement is, “I’m gay and therefore can’t and shouldn’t become engaged to marry you.”

    I *really* wish the LDS Church would stand up and use its influence to discourage the creation of new MoMOMs. Conference last week, with its emphasis on early and indiscriminate marriage, was a step backwards.

    [Any readers in MOMs who think I am “against” their marriage should see here.]

40. MoHo, I see no reason why you get to declare what is “ethical” for the entire span of the homosexual population.

    I know a gay guy who married a woman and reports still being happily married to her after thirty years of it. The only trial he gets about the relationship is cries of outrage from his fellow gays – who seem to see his very existence as a personal threat.

41. Hi Seth,

    About your gay friend’s long-standing marriage to a woman, please read the link I provided in the previous comment.

    When a mixed-orientation couple is dating, the ethics of the situation should recognize the asymmetrical power dynamics that exist. If one party is in love and the other party isn’t, then it’s hard to argue that an engagement to marry would be anything other than entrapment. This applies to many situations, not just this one.

    I do find it amusing that you, of all people, reject moral absolutes. :- )

42. Oh get off it.

    Just about any romantic relationship involves imbalances. There’s a reason the first few years of marriage are considered the toughest by most marriage counselors. Most of the people getting married out there today are “entrapping” their significant other in some way. That’s hardly an argument against the whole show though.

43. And it’s precisely because I don’t have a demand for moral absolutes that I’m still in the LDS Church, and not an atheist.

44. Limerence being what it is, any declaration of same-sex attraction is likely to be minimized by the other party.

    Only if they’re profoundly inexperienced, ignorant and naive. The more people know about how attraction works, the more they’ll understand and the less they’ll minimize such declarations.

45. Only if theyre profoundly inexperienced, ignorant and naive.

    You’d be surprised. Limerence alters brain chemistry.

46. Youd be surprised. Limerence alters brain chemistry.

    Not sure that that changes the overall proposition. I’ve been there myself, and I know other women who have as well. I was fairly inexperienced, but I still knew enough to recognize the difference between a guy saying to me, “I used to be attracted to guys, but that changed when I met you” and another guy saying, “I really like you, but I’m gay.” Didn’t matter how smitten I was, how altered my brain chemistry was. I still knew the difference. Just like I knew what it meant when I guy I felt limerance for said, “I should have told you sooner that I already had a girlfriend….”

    I’m not disagreeing that limerance can affect the reaction to a guarded declaration of same-sex attraction, or cause a downplaying of any raised obstacles to a relationship. No one believes more profoundly that love conquers all than someone who is in it but has yet to conquer much. (ooh! I quite like that sentence I just wrote.) I am just saying that if people are given more encouragement to pursue relationships when they’re younger and wait to get married when they’re older, they might have a better grasp on just how limerance can affect their own thinking, and just how much someone else’s personal issues–whether they involve sexual orientation or conflicting religious beliefs or incompatible career goals–can hinder a successful relationship.

47. but I also agree with you, MHH, in not thinking that “pre-engagement or premarital disclosure of ones homosexuality goes far enough.”

48. have you ever been to BYU Holly? Like the Mecca of inexperienced Naive and ignorant girls.
    My (future ex) wife is not ignorant or naive,but she was inexperienced, as was I. If I had made out with even one girl or my wife (or guy for that matter) before getting married, I’m pretty sure it would have all clicked.
    BYU needs some help. Or you are going to see the number of MOM’s (and failed MOM’s) continue at the same rate.
    A caveat. I have to agree with MHH. I totally respect people who stay in the MOM. It’s very difficult to truly know another’s heart and circumstances. Divorce is not an easy answer, it’s not an instant cure. It’s not something that should happen in every case.
    But Evergreen needs to stop telling people they can and should get married. That’s my problem with this, is being told “it’s no big deal, get married. You’ll be fine.” I read http://www.ldsresources.info/professionals/beckstead.shtml today but man does this fit my situation exactly

49. have you ever been to BYU Holly? Like the Mecca of inexperienced Naive and ignorant girls.

    And boys. 😉

    And it’s true — as discussed earlier on this thread, the LDS church encourages young people to get married as their first relationship experience.

50. O.o I was wondering who was going to call me out on that 🙂
    But ya that’s true.